Poll
Poll closed Question: Toilet Teaser: Which scenario is most likely?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Kramnik is cheating in the toilet    
  6 (8.2%)
Kram wants to unsettle Topa by these actions    
  3 (4.1%)
Topa wants to unsettle Kramnik by accusation    
  36 (49.3%)
Kramnik has a health problem that is the cause    
  17 (23.3%)
Other    
  11 (15.1%)




Total votes: 73
« Created by: J-dog on: 09/28/06 at 17:31:03 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Tales from the Toilet... (Read 58617 times)
katar
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #104 - 10/03/06 at 18:06:46
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QUOTE IMJohnCox
It just doesn’t work. It’s basic contract law. If one party’s in breach the other can demand it be put right before he goes on.
/QUOTE

This is not exactly correct under American contract law.

In the USA, the non-breaching party's performance is excused only if the breach is "material".  A non-material breach does not excuse performance.  I do not think that alteration of bathroom access (prompted by "protest against behaviour") constitutes a material breach.  To hold otherwise would be to maintain that access to a private, unmonitored bathroom is a "material term" of the contract.  USA case law has a fairly limited view of "materiality".

If locking Kramnik's bathroom was a breach, it was not (I believe) a material breach and therefore did not excuse Kramnik's performance.  Kramnik's remedy for non-material breach is a civil one for money damages.

On the other hand, if Kramnik does not perform (a material breach), then FIDE (who is, at-worst, in non-material breach) can sue Kramnik for losses incurred from Kramnik's failure to perform!  FIDE could have treated Kramnik's letter (an absolute refusal to play) as an "anticipatory repudiation" and then sued Kramnik on that basis.  Not a wise decision, but a legally available one under American contract law.

So the issue would be whether Kramnik's private bathroom access is "material" to the contract.  I think clearly it is not-- it is a peripheral matter unrelated to the chess-for-money essence of the contract.

I must admit I am rather ignorant of English law or international law.  Those jurisdictions may yield an altogether different analysis/result.
  

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IMJohnCox
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #103 - 10/03/06 at 18:04:29
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Usual foam-flecked ranting from Gazza. 

More interesting is the press conference. Kramnik has said he will definitely sue FIDE if his appeal against the forfeit does not succeed and may nnot continue to play (I assume he will, but then I assumed he wouldn't before, so we'll see). And Topalov evidently said that he believed Kramnik's play was fair (so why the hell complain?), that he should never have said he wouldn't shake hands (which he did because he 'flied into a passion') and that he had nothing to be proud of. He's right there, anyway. Interesting he's shifted into damage control, mind.
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #102 - 10/03/06 at 17:59:25
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See also:

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3396

(includes the Wall Street Journal editorial followed by an interview with Kasparov)
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #101 - 10/03/06 at 17:50:38
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Kasparov's take on the recent events:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009029



Btw. here's a Dominic Lawson article worth reading - I had no idea Kirsan had been visiting space aliens!  Grin

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article1784485.ece
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #100 - 10/03/06 at 17:15:39
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/03/06 at 16:19:55:

Although the advice they publish and the advice they receive will have been different, you may be sure, not necessarily in substance but most certainly in detail, range and tone. Trust me. It always is.


I trust you. In fact, I have obtained many legal opinions to show to the authorities. In legal world and professional accountants world two plus two is not necessarily four. It's what you want to be!

But. the fact remains. My professional judgement is this. Kramnik will win the case hands down under Contract Law in India which closely follows Contract Law of England.
  

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IMJohnCox
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #99 - 10/03/06 at 16:19:55
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Indeed; it looks as though FIDE had little choice.

Although the advice they publish and the advice they receive will have been different, you may be sure, not necessarily in substance but most certainly in detail, range and tone. Trust me. It always is.

I'm still not sure what Kramnik was supposed to protest about. I see Sand mentions it, but it makes no sense to me. He couldn't protest about the Appeal Committee decision because the match rules don't provide for him to do so, as their decision is final. He either didn't need to protest about the decision to start game five (because he was exercising his right not to continue with the contract until the breach was remedied rather than using the mechanism in the contract) or had no grounds for doing so (because there was in fact no breach). And he certainly couldn't protest about the forfeit for the same reason.

Of course laws and lawyers are different in different countries, but I have my doubts about Mr Sand.
  
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Keano
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #98 - 10/03/06 at 15:45:24
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Well if they are paying this guy for legal advice and that his job, I suppose they have to accept what he says! He says "our Swiss lawyer Jean-Mark Rejmondom has the same opinion", so on face value it would seem there was no choice but to let the forfeited point stand.
I know we have people on the other thread who think Kramnik could have a case, but it would seem more and more unlikely, especially considering the blunder his agent made in not submitting a protest until AFTER the game 5 had been forfeited. How this could have happened I find amazing - after the match Kramnik will have to seriously talk to this guy I would imagine  Huh
Anyway, for now we have to try and get back to the chess, I hope it doesnt turn out that game 5 is crucial to the final score, but looks like Kramnik will have to play on the basis that he has dropped a point there.
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #97 - 10/03/06 at 13:28:17
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In the translation I read I also found the following:

Quote:
the head of Bulgarian delegation Silvio Danailova and has made all this porridge. 

Rooms of rest have returned to players. 

The appeal committee danced, in Kramnik's opinion, under pipe Данаилова,


Russian IS a funny language!
  

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Klick
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #96 - 10/03/06 at 13:25:59
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Quote:
To president ФИДЕ K.Ilyumzhinov.

Dear sir the president,

I urgently recommend the following concerning a match Topalov - Kramnik:

1. If it is possible(probable), to reach(achieve) the agreement which would be signed by both players (commands(teams)), and to continue a match.

2. If it is impossible to reach(achieve) the agreement, we risk to be subpoenaed. For ФИДЕ it is important in this connection to make the correct legal decision.

My opinion:

Kramnik has not come in time on 5-th party(set), and the main arbitrator correctly later has solved one hour, that the party(set) is lost to them.

Kramnik has not submitted the formal appeal against this decision.

It means, that result of a match - 3:2 in favour of Kramnik, and it is necessary to play 6-th party(set).

If we shall change result of 5-th party(set) Topalov will have serious bases to win if it(he) will bring an action.

If we shall adhere to result of 5-th party(set) at Kramnik if it(he) will decide to bring an action, so serious bases will not be.

I long talked to our Swiss lawyer Jean-Mark Rejmondom, and it(he) holds the same opinion.

Yours faithfully,

M. Sand,

Adviser ФИДЕ

On legal issues.
  

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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #95 - 10/02/06 at 13:27:42
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Hello, nice to see an experienced lawyer like Mr Cox agree with my legal arguments. For a moment after reading Katar, thought there was some logic. maybe now not. =P must say its hard to think in the heat of the circumstances, and Kramnik must feel even worse.

I *knew* a bomb will be unvealed by Kramnik in the 6. Ne5 line should Topalov try it... and well Kramnik comes up with a fairly strong drawing line indeed.
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #94 - 10/02/06 at 12:09:16
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katar is simply wrong. The contract does allow for a private bathroom (in the sense of unshared). Whether a monitor could have been ordered is more difficult, but that wasn't what the Appeals Committee were ordering.

This line has been fashionable lately since my book was written (said he!) and clearly I was a little glib.
  
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Keano
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #93 - 10/02/06 at 11:49:19
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Kramniks opening play makes a strange impression to me, but what do I know  Huh .....it must all be prep if we are to go by the clock times - Toppy taking his time to try and figure it out

I suppose if Kramnik can manage to swap the Black-squared bishops and play ...Ke7, followed by ...Rgd8 then all will be well - The Bg6 can be re-routed later I suppose.
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #92 - 10/02/06 at 11:43:20
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Willempie wrote on 10/02/06 at 11:24:55:
In any case Topalov is following your book (Ne5 slav) so far Smiley


"8... Bg6 9. Be3 is a comfortable edge for White" on page 148. We'll see if this is true today Smiley
  
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Keano
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #91 - 10/02/06 at 11:37:51
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Well I have sympathy for Kramnik on one level now, which leaves me torn - I wanted Topalov to win the match, now I dont know what I want  Huh

Seriously though, I hope that people can get back to concentrating on the chess after this monumental farce.

If Topalov does win, I hope he does it by more than 1 point, so that the game 5 does not become a legal wrangling point at a later stage (as Kramnik has cleverly left the door open for this, and who can blame him)
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #90 - 10/02/06 at 11:37:37
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Hello Mr Cox, nice to see more legal opinions! Hopefully Mr Dearing can offer his legal opinion too.   
I think as a matter of construction Katar's argument does hold some merit, though i will argue this is primarily a case of ultra vires from the appeals committee (ie. it exceeded its authority). 

But one issue is whether the Appeals Committee decision is void from the beginning (i think the common law term is void ab initio?!), or can it somehow take effect for the time being that it was "valid" and affect third party rights (Topalov's)?
  
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