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Poll closed Question: Toilet Teaser: Which scenario is most likely?
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Kramnik is cheating in the toilet    
  6 (8.2%)
Kram wants to unsettle Topa by these actions    
  3 (4.1%)
Topa wants to unsettle Kramnik by accusation    
  36 (49.3%)
Kramnik has a health problem that is the cause    
  17 (23.3%)
Other    
  11 (15.1%)




Total votes: 73
« Created by: J-dog on: 09/28/06 at 17:31:03 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Tales from the Toilet... (Read 58631 times)
OstapBender
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #134 - 10/11/06 at 03:39:22
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A follow up on the Short-Kamsky flame war on the Playchess server ealier today during game 11 (http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1159464663/131#131).

from http://www.chessninja.com/dailydirt/2006/10/kamskyshort_19942006.htm Quote:
All right, I think I have to write my opinion, once and for all, on things that happened 12 years ago in my match vs. Short. Needless to say, since memory is selective and facts can be skewed to support anyone's position, people will have to draw conclusions for themselves. What I am going to do is just to post the way I saw things develop at a time.

Ok, since all candidates matches were played at same time, there were two pairs on the stage. Adams vs. Anand and Kamsky vs. Short. If I remember correctly, I won first 3 games which happened without incident. I get sick, something that happened rare back then, the night before the 4th game. I play black and get worse position, in addition to having cough, headache and wooziness. Next thing I hear is Short telling to drink a glass of water to suppress my cough or to do something about it. I lose all concentration and am now more concerned about stiffling my cough than thinking about the game. Needless to say that game I lost. Now this is where it all starts. Look at this from this point of view. Nigel Short, former challenger for the title of world champion, played for many years, including numerous matches. Do you really think he didn't know that rules exist which prevent talking between players during the course of the game and that you have to ask the arbiter in order to communicate something to your opponent? It's laughable to suggest that he didn't know. 

Therefore, the only conclusion one can draw is that Nigel did that on purpose in order to inflict psychological attack on me, to disturb my concentration (which any top player will tell you is the most important thing to play well at high level) and he succeeded. I lost that game basically without putting up a fight. Also during the course of the game, Nigel was walking back and forth to the restroom area which was accessible by other candidates and was seen talking or at least exchanging some words with Anand. I don't care if it was a simple hello. Such attitude only shows total disrespect to your opponent and provocation as part of the psychological warfare off the chess board. Every little factor that makes an effect on your opponent's vital concentration during the game is crucial to the result of the game and possible rest of the games in the match. I never used such psychological tricks myself and never plan on doing so. 

The only thing I could do and what I did was to tell my father about the incident. I am sure I don't have to explain the kind of feeling you can get when you've lost as a result of someone's provocation or a violation of rules and when such result cannot be overturned regardless of how right you are. My father indeed had a quick temper and it caused him to speak with Nigel that same evening, and the words that were said was an over-reaction and I am sorry my father happened to over-react in such way. Nigel obviously wasn't such a helpless sheep, as the police was soon called and took my father for the questioning. My father later was ordered not to show up in the tournament hall for the duration of the match, and it was complied with. 

However, and I want to stress this point, this entire mess was started and caused by Nigel himself, when he realized that match could not be won by chess means and started resorting to psychological tricks. Obviously Mr. Short didn't expect the response he received, but "what you reap is what you saw" is, I believe, an old proverb and it perfectly applies in this case. 

All this other stuff about being responsible for your entire delegation is just a cover for what is obviously a severe blow to Nigel's personal ego of losing match. 

As for my short sentences during the chat, I felt that it was time to forget about things long in the past and wanted to avoid the confrontation with Nigel. I came to playchess to watch the game, because ICC server relayer went down and imagine my surprise when Nigel started throwing insults at me. It is very easy to hide behind the keyboard and throw accusations, however I don't intend to passively ignore such challenges to my honor, hence my proposal to settle the dispute in the time honored and traditional way. 
I rest my case. 

Posted by: Gata Kamsky at October 10, 2006 22:19


At the time I wasn't sure whether the Short-Kamsky exchange might have been tongue-in-cheek — I guess not!  Twelve years is a long time to hold a grudge!
  

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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #133 - 10/11/06 at 00:16:00
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I found this at the chessninja-forum and thought it was funny:

Take a look at http://www.kramnik.com

Quite normal.

Now take a look at http://www.topalov.com

Bulgarian site selling video-surveillance..


Coincidence?
  

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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #132 - 10/10/06 at 16:46:59
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Wow.
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #131 - 10/10/06 at 15:10:34
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An entertaining exchange between Nigel Short and Gata Kamsky on the playchess server during game 11:

Quote:
Nigel Short:  Gata, in our 1994 match you delivered a
written protest to the arbiter accusing me of visiting the
bathroom too often. Was that done to disturb me, or because you
thought I had a desktop hidden in the cubicle?

Gata Kamsky:  ask me something i can remember
nigel

Nigel Short:  I remember it well, Gata.

Gata Kamsky:  all i remember is that you started
talking to me during the game

Nigel Short:  Yes, and the arbiter had overheard a
conversation between your father and yourself immediately after
the game. He told you to complain. You said that there was
nothing to complain about. And yet within the hour there was yet
another written protest about me cheating during this match.

Nigel Short: I guess Daddy had his way

Gata Kamsky:  i would be careful with making
assumptions

Gata Kamsky:  back then i didn't understood your dirty
psychological tricks nigel

Nigel Short:  I was also accused of "looking at Anand
too much"

Nigel Short:  and what a pity that the match
organisers failed to erect a wall on the stage , like you
insisted that they must

Gata Kamsky:  nigel you had your chance against garry
no?

Gata Kamsky:  so stop complaining

Nigel Short: I do remember the death threat from your
father, delivered in an extremely irate manner about 2cm from my
face.

Nigel Short:  you won that match by dirty tricks,
Gata. And you know it.

Gata Kamsky:  so talk to my father about it

Nigel Short:  "Talk to my father"? Why not "talk to
Danailov"? we can all benefit from hiding behind our henchmen

Gata Kamsky:  nice try nigel

Gata Kamsky: trying to do others all work for you?

Susan Polgar:  I think a $1 million match between Gata
and Nigel is in order.

Nigel Short: they have relevance, Susan. It is the
only time in my career I have accused of cheating. I was accused
repeatedly. There are obvious similarities with the current
match.

Nigel Short:  the only thing that Danailov has not
done is to physically threaten Kramnik with death


  

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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #130 - 10/10/06 at 10:13:41
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I don't see that it does, no. It refers to 'the behaviour complained of'. It's designed to stop protests being dealt with just before a game, precisely as happened.

I'm sure the contract doesn't say that FIDE shall provide an unbiased appeals committee, but equally I'm pretty sure one could imply a term without a lot of trouble. But fact-intensive, as you say (I rather like some of these US legal terms).
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #129 - 10/10/06 at 03:39:09
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My opinion: there is no breach of the letter of the contract.  Kramnik can try to sue for a breach of the implied duty of "good faith and fair dealing", but this is highly fact-intensive (which is why we can't effectively argue it  Wink ) and rather difficult to win besides.

As for "accepting the late protest", hadn't Danailov already issued the same protest some days prior? And doesn't the 2-hour term contemplate specific instances, rather than something ongoing?

I'm not convinced.  For the record, I don't approve of Danailov's shenanigans.
  

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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #128 - 10/10/06 at 00:39:02
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Actually, it occurs to me that we have been disregarding much of Kramnik's point. He was also saying that the Appeals Committee was biased and he wasn't going to play on until they were replaced.

Assuming they were (allowing the spying, accepting the late protest to name but two) this is probably a more powerful argument, don't you think?

There's a distinction between allowing x visits per game and just locking the thing. Either would have been a fatuous decision, but it may still be that one was a fatuous decision within their powers.
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #127 - 10/09/06 at 23:16:43
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/08/06 at 15:47:45:
It is not true that no reaction they took could have avoided infringing 3.18.3. They could have said that no more than two visits per hour were to be allowed and that the arbiter was to monitor that. It is clear that this would also have been an absurd decision which would have led to the same trouble, but it would at least have been contractually available to them.

First of all you are now relying on the same sort of nuance that you disregarded elsewhere in the same post.

Second, and more importantly, this is a great concession in your argument.  Surely it is indisputable that playing "conditions" includes not only facilities but more importantly ACCESS to those facilities.

Is not a monitored/restricted (2x per hour) toilet a different "playing condition" as compared to an unmonitored/unrestricted toilet?

Surely, yes.  If so, you have conceded that the AC may alter playing conditions pursuant to a player's acceptable protest (without breaching any contract).  It seems to me that this defeats much of your prior argument.  If the AC may limit access by posting a guard to keep watch, then why may the AC not limit access by locking the handle?

In your scenario, as you note, Kramnik would have issued an identical protest letter, generating the same spectacle as we have seen.
  

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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #126 - 10/08/06 at 15:47:45
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I don't know about pre-appeal hearings (I've never said this) but Kramnik had a right under the regulations, never mind natural law, to have his written observations considered. As I understand it this was not done. It's not the most important breach by the AC but it's symptomatic of their inadequacies.

The 'each party shall have' stuff isn't in the match regulations. It's in the contract, according to Macropoulos' press release. He says (obviously wrongly to me) that he thinks it means that as long as there's a loo the party can use there's no breach. 

Of course each party could and should be prevented from making press releases designed to put the opponent off! We're not in the US with your (dare I say it?) absurd reverence for the constitution. Indeed they are so prohibited by the Laws of the game - behaviour designed to bring the game into disrepute is prohibited and so is behaviour designed to distract the opponent. A decent arbiter would have warned Danailov that if there was any repeat of such behaviour he would declare the next game forfeit by Topalov (who knows; maybe Gijssen has?).

Frankly I would say that there is only one proper way to react to a complaint about inappropriate behaviour, and that is to look at the match regulations and the laws of the game. Is it prohibited there? Obviously not. Is there any evidence that it was to do with computer cheating? Obviously not. That's the end of the matter and the only question is whether to retain Mr Topalov's five grand.

However, I agree that that is something which it is within the AC's allotted powers to be wrong about. It is not true that no reaction they took could have avoided infringing 3.18.3. They could have said that no more than two visits per hour were to be allowed and that the arbiter was to monitor that. It is clear that this would also have been an absurd decision which would have led to the same trouble, but it would at least have been contractually available to them.

I am surprised at your brushing my example of a differently worded protest seeking the same result aside so easily. Nuance is important to be sure, but equaly achieving by the back door what could not be achieved by the front is something the law strives to avoid. 
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #125 - 10/08/06 at 05:44:02
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I am glad we are no longer seeing the argument that Kramnik had a right in due process or natural law to a pre-decision hearing.

First, there is no applicable basis for such a right.  Not the 14th amendment of teh US constitution nor a term of contract.   (This line doesn't work: "Well, it's just not fair!!  Danailov is scum!  It must be illegal or breach of contract, dammit!")   

Second, per the contract, the AC is to rule within 2 hours (!!) after the protest.  It is inconceivable that a hearing could be scheduled and organized and fully resolved in such a time.
  

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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #124 - 10/08/06 at 05:31:24
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/07/06 at 10:02:14:

Katar: I don't see this section conferring almighty powers on the AC. The section says they can consider protests about a wide range of things, certainly, but it doesn't say what powers they have at all. These have to be implied.

"The Committee may decide on the following matters: [A-F]"  The AC's decision is not merely an advisory (non-binding) opinion: "The written decision of the Appeals Committee arising from any dispute in respect of these regulations shall be final."  Paraphrased, the AC may make a final decision regarding a protest against behavior.

How is the AC to render a final decision regarding the behavior of abnormally frequent toilet trips without altering any playing conditions?  Whether the bathroom door is locked or a voyeur camera/arbiter is posted within, the playing conditions will have changed.  I'd say it boils down to: either the AC can alter playing conditions (in a reasonable, impartial way and pursuant to an allowable protest) OR the AC is merely advisory (ie, toothless and pointless).  The $5,000 fee is meant to discourage frivolous protests.  Of course, the juvenile open letters to the press do the most damage yet are not (& can't be) regulated.  Free speech protects a fool's right to be a jerk.  Ie, Danailov's Fritz9 stats.

Where is the iron-clad term that guarantees the private bathrooms?  3.18.3 is oft-cited but merely says that a player cannot object to the conditions.  No help there.  I've never seen this other term to the effect that "each player shall have a bathroom".  In that case, locking might be a (non-material) breach, but installing a camera or arbiter would not be a breach at all.  An odd result.

What you see as an unfair modification of agreed conditions, I see as a regulation of behavior. 

IMJohnCox wrote on 10/07/06 at 10:02:14:

I'm not sure what exactly 'dispositive' means, but if it means that if Kramnik doesn't win issue 1 he's lost then I agree.


We yankees use "dispositive" to describe an issue that singly decides (disposes of) the case.  As you note, it's only dispositive if resolved in Topalov's favor.

IMJohnCox wrote on 10/07/06 at 10:02:14:
I find it very difficult to follow your notion that because the protest doesn't mention the facilities (you surely agree that facilities includes toilets and comes within 'conditions', no?) it can be entertained, and that the AC can then do what they couldn't do on a direct protest.

In other words (as I understand you) you think the position is this: if the protest had said 'We don't think the toilet facilities are satisfactory because Mr Kramnik is entitled to go in there whenever he likes and they could be wired. Please change the facilities.' it would have been tossed straight out under 3.18.3. On the other hand, because the protest actually says, 'Mr Kramnik goes to his contractually agreed private loo a lot and we think he could be cheating in there', this entitles the committee to close the loo.


Well, this is moot because Topalov's letter specifically protests "behavior" as such.   

I agree with you completely-- the alternative wording you give would be expressly forbidden by 3.18.3.  It is speculative and hypothetical, alleging that the playing conditions provide opportunities for Kramnik to exhibit a certain type of behavior.  The actual protest alleged that Kramnik actually did visit the only unmonitored location up to 50x per game, a frequency far beyond the range of normal human function.

Linguistic nuances make a big difference.   Wink
  

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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #123 - 10/07/06 at 14:55:53
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I'm not sure he goes far enough, frankly.........

Sorry, but I'm not in the mood for laughing, even though my predictions have been proved right.

Time for some predictions about what'll happen after the match.

How will it play in the mags, I wonder? A few articles sounding off, a few letters from the Topa's-wonderful-he's-so-exciting-Drawnik morons, end of. Sponsors will continue to invite Topalov as if nothing had happened. FIDE will go on running its tournaments. Will Kramnik play in them? He might, but I think this could be the end for him - it's hard to imagine he won't be sick of the game, and if he does sue - well, look at Milov. Win, lose or draw, litigation's an agonising, draining process and it must destroy the love for the game you need for success (as the Chinese curse goes - may you be involved in a lawsuit in which you are in the right). I expect Topalov'll win a few more of these tournaments and people will forget all about this. I suppose Ilyumzhinov will come out unscathed - competence and propriety aren't the sort of thing his supporters look for.

And that'll be that. Cheating pays.
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #122 - 10/07/06 at 10:48:49
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Silman has written something entertaining related this tragic development of the current WC:

http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_raves/The_Sliming_of_a_Champion.html

At least I had a good laugh  Smiley
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #121 - 10/07/06 at 10:08:03
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Afterthought - you'd think, wouldn't you, that there'd be something in the contract saying that in the event of a conflict between this and the regulations one or other of them would prevail. Maybe there's something saying the contract prevails and that's why Makro focussed on it?

  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #120 - 10/07/06 at 10:02:14
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SL: Yes, the rules and regulations are different, but everyone is assuming that the players and FIDE have signed a contract saying that they (and the Laws of Chess, for that matter) shall govern the match. No-one has seen the contract, which appears not to be a public document. The passage being quoted from it was given by Mr Makropoulos in his statement. The contract might contain all sorts of provisions which would render our entire discussion on this board instantly redundant, but neither party has pointed to them.

Katar: I don't see this section conferring almighty powers on the AC. The section says they can consider protests about a wide range of things, certainly, but it doesn't say what powers they have at all. These have to be implied.

I'm not sure what exactly 'dispositive' means, but if it means that if Kramnik doesn't win issue 1 he's lost then I agree.

I find it very difficult to follow your notion that because the protest doesn't mention the facilities (you surely agree that facilities includes toilets and comes within 'conditions', no?) it can be entertained, and that the AC can then do what they couldn't do on a direct protest.

In other words (as I understand you) you think the position is this: if the protest had said 'We don't think the toilet facilities are satisfactory because Mr Kramnik is entitled to go in there whenever he likes and they could be wired. Please change the facilities.' it would have been tossed straight out under 3.18.3. On the other hand, because the protest actually says, 'Mr Kramnik goes to his contractually agreed private loo a lot and we think he could be cheating in there', this entitles the committee to close the loo. This is the whole disagreement between us about being able to override the contract because the protest was within their capacity.

Then of course there is the straight contractual provision Makro mentions. This makes me think that he'd had advice that they couldn't change the contract - or at least had it put to them by Hensel - and that his feeble construction point was their try to get round that. It doesn't do him any credit making such a weak point in his statement.

It would seem there is no point in debating point 2 since we are arguing about different jurisdictions and may well both be right. But I am not so confident as you that the difference is not 'material'. In such titanic and evenly matched struggles every little detail counts. For one thing, perhaps it is important that Kramnik clearly thought it was material enough to risk losing a full White point about it in a very important match. I would find it very strange that a judge could say in the face of Kramnik giving evidence that he believes it affects his performance state to have his own space, and evidence that every important match f0r many years has had one, that it wasn't a material breach (especially in the context of the AC\s grave procedural breaches).

Respectful - ah well, you are talking my language. One crack about Drawnik out of you though and I go ballistic again.....
  
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