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Question: Toilet Teaser: Which scenario is most likely?


* This poll has now closed *
Kramnik is cheating in the toilet 6 (8.2%) Kram wants to unsettle Topa by these actions 3 (4.1%) Topa wants to unsettle Kramnik by accusation 36 (49.3%) Kramnik has a health problem that is the cause 17 (23.3%) Other 11 (15.1%) Total votes: 73 « Created by: J-dog on: 09/28/06 at 17:31:03 »

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Tales from the Toilet... (Read 58713 times)

Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Tales from the Toilet... Reply #44 - 09/29/06 at 15:43:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 09/29/06 at 15:12:51: Quote: BtW I want to make clear that I dont think the ruling was particularly smart, but I find this "it's in the contract and I will whine until everything is reversed" attitude also not really the sign of "true sportsmanship" (whatever that may mean). True sportsman = doormat, or what?! FIDE could at least pretend they're impartial, by not agreeing to every Topalov idea of how to disturb his opponent. Obviously, Topalov hasn't only taken over Fischer's playing style - he got the dirty tricks too! I really fail to see in what way the arbiters' decision demonstrates their partiality for Topalov. Apparently they found that his complaint had sufficient merit, at least, to warrant asking Kramnik to use a different bathroom. This is hardly a critical imposition. The match is a FIDE match; of course FIDE is responsible for the rulings. But there is circularity in the twin notions that (1) FIDE is duplicitious because its ruling is unjust and (2) the ruling is unjust because FIDE is duplicitous. Outside this self-confirming loop lies the possibility that FIDE is not duplicitous and the ruling is not unjust. As to sportsmanship, I would like to know when, in an arbitrated match, is it sporting to refuse further play until a ruling has been reversed? How could any matches then be arbitrated? If Kramnik believes the arbiters are biased in favor of Kramnik, the right thing to do is to walk away. Getting one ruling reversed isn't going to remove the alleged bias.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Tales from the Toilet... Reply #43 - 09/29/06 at 15:32:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock wrote on 09/29/06 at 15:01:55: @Willempie The whole conduct of Topalov, thro' his team is filthy, imo. The 2 statements and their motive speak pretty low of FIDE WC. I find it pretty filthy. I dont see so much filth. It is a sport not some teaparty. In football every round of the Champion's league you see exactly the same things. Eg with Barcelona-Chelsea the linesman was being protested about etc. All part of the game, for better or worse. Chess like football is not only what is happening on the board. And to be completely clear it is not Topalov's fault that the committee agrees with his complaint. [quote author=TalJechin] True sportsman = doormat, or what?! FIDE could at least pretend they're impartial, by not agreeing to every Topalov idea of how to disturb his opponent. Obviously, Topalov hasn't only taken over Fischer's playing style - he got the dirty tricks too! [/quote] He could have directly stated he wouldnt play as I am fairly sure he didnt decide this at the moment he was in his restroom. Again how is Topalov guilty of having a complaint/request granted? It may very well be that the committee is not impartial, but I doubt Topalov is handing them money or somesuch. On the other hand it could very well be that our dear dictator is. Personally I dont know what to think about this mess any more. I only hope that the my association will finally draw their conclusions and that the Corus sponsor wont withdraw after witnessing yet another FIDE mess.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Tales from the Toilet... Reply #42 - 09/29/06 at 15:29:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	lnn2 wrote on 09/29/06 at 15:09:11: uh Markovich.. fact: Kramnik did not go to the loo 50 times. That figure was found by the Appeals Committee to be "exaggerated". Frankly i think this threat to quit is a good move by Kramnik (at least deserving a '!?' if not a '!'). Show the Topa team that Kramnik is not to be messed around with. I was just quoting the number that I saw on Susan Polgar's plog. But it does appear from the decision of the arbiters that the number of visits was unusual. I wonder just what it was. In any case, it seems to me that the Bulgarians were within their rights to lodge a complaint and, a not-obviously-unreasonable ruling having been issued, play should now continue. I do not see that in an arbitrated match, a player has the right to refuse to play until some decision he dislikes is reversed. That would be end of arbitrated matches. Therefore I cannot join you in your approval of Kramnik's tactic, which I regard as unsporting and ultimately harmful to chess. Actually if Kramnik pursues this, Topalov should simply be declared the winner of the match. That would be a terrible pity, but it is the only fair that if one player refuses to play, the other is given the prize. That's what happened, and quite rightly, to Fischer.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Tales from the Toilet... Reply #41 - 09/29/06 at 15:12:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: BtW I want to make clear that I dont think the ruling was particularly smart, but I find this "it's in the contract and I will whine until everything is reversed" attitude also not really the sign of "true sportsmanship" (whatever that may mean). True sportsman = doormat, or what?! FIDE could at least pretend they're impartial, by not agreeing to every Topalov idea of how to disturb his opponent. Obviously, Topalov hasn't only taken over Fischer's playing style - he got the dirty tricks too!


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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Tales from the Toilet... Reply #40 - 09/29/06 at 15:09:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	uh Markovich.. fact: Kramnik did not go to the loo 50 times. That figure was found by the Appeals Committee to be "exaggerated". Frankly i think this threat to quit is a good move by Kramnik (at least deserving a '!?' if not a '!'). Show the Topa team that Kramnik is not to be messed around with.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Tales from the Toilet... Reply #39 - 09/29/06 at 15:01:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	@Willempie The whole conduct of Topalov, thro' his team is filthy, imo. The 2 statements and their motive speak pretty low of FIDE WC. I find it pretty filthy.

	CastleRock
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Tales from the Toilet... Reply #38 - 09/29/06 at 14:19:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock wrote on 09/29/06 at 13:58:41: Markovich wrote on 09/29/06 at 13:37:17: Oh, come on. You're in a weekend chess tournament -- forget about the world championship -- and you notice that some player is going to the bathroom 40-50 times per game. Would you mention it to the TD? I sure would. Sure, I too would complain, Marcovich. What if the TD says, 40-50 is exaggerated, piss as much as you want in a different toilet, there is no proof to the suspicion and the appeal is upheld! Is it not insulting on your opponent's pride? Problem is not appeal. Problem is going public and appealing simultaneously. Problem is throwing further mud even after getting an unreasonable verdict. Problem is spoiling the image of the game and simultaneously calling yourself a champion. If it is not a cheap filthy tactics, I don't know what else is,. BTW, now I have a big doubt. Who is a bigger filth? Topalov or Kirsan? So to search for the basis of your qualification, what is it exactly Topalov did that would qualify him as filth? He lodged a complaint, made it public, got his way and that's about it. For the rest I have seen nothing worse than the regular rivalry statements in sports. Armstrong made similar statements as did Damon Hill etc. BtW I want to make clear that I dont think the ruling was particularly smart, but I find this "it's in the contract and I will whine until everything is reversed" attitude also not really the sign of "true sportsmanship" (whatever that may mean).

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Tales from the Toilet... Reply #37 - 09/29/06 at 14:08:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	In my previous post last word should have been FIDE as a whole and not just its president

	CastleRock
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Tales from the Toilet... Reply #36 - 09/29/06 at 13:58:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 09/29/06 at 13:37:17: Oh, come on. You're in a weekend chess tournament -- forget about the world championship -- and you notice that some player is going to the bathroom 40-50 times per game. Would you mention it to the TD? I sure would. Sure, I too would complain, Marcovich. What if the TD says, 40-50 is exaggerated, piss as much as you want in a different toilet, there is no proof to the suspicion and the appeal is upheld! Is it not insulting on your opponent's pride? Problem is not appeal. Problem is going public and appealing simultaneously. Problem is throwing further mud even after getting an unreasonable verdict. Problem is spoiling the image of the game and simultaneously calling yourself a champion. If it is not a cheap filthy tactics, I don't know what else is,. BTW, now I have a big doubt. Who is a bigger filth? Topalov or Kirsan?

	CastleRock
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Tales from the Toilet... Reply #35 - 09/29/06 at 13:37:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	kingsGambit wrote on 09/29/06 at 13:27:23: Kramnik reacted poorly, but let there be no doubt who the villain is here - Topalov (maybe fide too). His psycho warfare is akin to a child who makes excuses when losing, and it has led to this very sad pathetic situation which is not only bad for this match but bad for chess. Any respect I had for topalov has gone. Media will have field day with this . Oh, come on. You're in a weekend chess tournament -- forget about the world championship -- and you notice that some player is going to the bathroom 40-50 times per game. Would you mention it to the TD? I sure would.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Tales from the Toilet... Reply #34 - 09/29/06 at 13:36:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock wrote on 09/29/06 at 12:55:25: Willempie wrote on 09/29/06 at 12:16:24: Well it is getting a bit ridiculous by now. Sure the protests were quite idiotic, but this reaction is getting into the same league. I would have understood if he didnt show up at all and release a statement, but such a sit-in is a bit overboard. Signed contract says protest fee is refunded if appeal is upheld. Committee has upheld the appeal, to action to placate Topalov and simultaneously said there is no substance in the appeal! What should the aggrieved party do? Choice is simple. Either walk away from a million Dollar and unified WC title (Plus 2) or swallow the pride and play on, pose as though I'm a martyr and win the title which is very much within reach. That's always a toughy, though I think it was very naive to expect any reliability from the FIDE. Exactly the reason why I predicted a cancellation. Incidentally one of the reasons I think my federation should withdraw from FIDE. Quote: I would have taken the latter course. So would have many of us. It takes enormous amount of guts and pride (call it foolishness, if you like) to take the former course. That's why I have this new found respect for Kramnik. Now, I hope all the more, a solution is found and Kramnik becomes the champion. He hasnt withdrawn yet... I would have found it much better to immediately make the announcement after the ruling. Now it is looking like a total farce (and no I dont really blame Krammy for that, but he is not exacly helping it either atm)

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Tales from the Toilet... Reply #33 - 09/29/06 at 13:34:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	tracke wrote on 09/29/06 at 13:17:27: Topalov is a mad guy. Maybe a bad guy. I can understand Kramnik. While waiting for Topalov´s next move looking at a toilet is far more pleasant than looking at Topalov. tracke PS: The Match is over. I don´t expect Kramnik to continue at 3-2, he would insist on 3-1. I voted that the most probable cause of so many bathroom trips was Kramnik's health. Nevertheless, I think 40-50 trips to the bathroom during a game is unreasonable, and would arouse the suspicions of most opponents. We are in the day and age of wireless connections and strong chess computers, after all. I am not saying that Kramnik is cheating, but he is behaving very unusually and thereby giving rise to suspicion. Not only impropriety, but the very appearance of impropriety, must be avoided. If Kramnik's health is so poor that it requires incessant bathroom trips, he should seek a medical leave. I therefore disagree with those who say that Topalov's people were wrong to lodge a protest. I also think that for the sake of chess, Kramnik should have played the fifth game, rather than forfeiting. I understand why he would feel insulted, but what, really, is the problem with using the same bathroom? Further, for better or worse, the arbiters have ruled. Play should then have continued. The best thing for Kramnik to have done would have been to shut up and beat Topalov again. I really despair for this match and for chess itself, now that a game has been forfeited. If the match does not continue due to Kramnik's unwillingness to play, I don't think the world should recognize Kramnik as chess champion of anything.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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kingsGambit YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 9 Joined: 07/20/06	Re: Tales from the Toilet... Reply #32 - 09/29/06 at 13:27:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik reacted poorly, but let there be no doubt who the villain is here - Topalov (maybe fide too). His psycho warfare is akin to a child who makes excuses when losing, and it has led to this very sad pathetic situation which is not only bad for this match but bad for chess. Any respect I had for topalov has gone. Media will have field day with this .


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tracke Senior Member Offline Introite tam etiam ibi dei sunt Posts: 467 Location: Kiel (GER) Joined: 09/21/04 Gender:	Re: Tales from the Toilet... Reply #31 - 09/29/06 at 13:17:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topalov is a mad guy. Maybe a bad guy. I can understand Kramnik. While waiting for Topalov´s next move looking at a toilet is far more pleasant than looking at Topalov. tracke PS: The Match is over. I don´t expect Kramnik to continue at 3-2, he would insist on 3-1.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Tales from the Toilet... Reply #30 - 09/29/06 at 13:05:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik3- Topalov2.

	CastleRock
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