Poll
Poll closed Question: Toilet Teaser: Which scenario is most likely?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Kramnik is cheating in the toilet    
  6 (8.2%)
Kram wants to unsettle Topa by these actions    
  3 (4.1%)
Topa wants to unsettle Kramnik by accusation    
  36 (49.3%)
Kramnik has a health problem that is the cause    
  17 (23.3%)
Other    
  11 (15.1%)




Total votes: 73
« Created by: J-dog on: 09/28/06 at 17:31:03 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Tales from the Toilet... (Read 58687 times)
MNb
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #74 - 09/30/06 at 01:24:10
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For a split second I thought, I recognized Michael Palin and John Cleese on the pictures above. I assume this answers Willempie's question.

Albatross!
  

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Klick
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #73 - 09/30/06 at 00:05:21
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"WC-STORIES:Behind the scenes" Exclaim  JOKE ALERT!


"Hmm, I can't beat this guy.. I better do something.."


"Huh..what is that? He likes to go to the toilet?!"




Checking Kramnik's toilet. "Now I know what to do..."


Resting after finished job, Kramnik's room in turmoil as toilet has been locked.


"He needs to use the toilet, but I've made sure he can't..."


Kramnik checkmated.


Very happy.




All pictures from http://www.chessbase.com
  

There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Markovich
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #72 - 09/29/06 at 23:48:24
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[quote author=Michael Ayton link=1159464663/60#60 date=1159553438][quote]Yes well, how can someone lodge a complaint that is based on the suspicion that his opponent is cheating without "effectively insinuating" precisely that? [/quote]

Well, quite! -- obviously they can't! I assume you believe, unlike(?) Willempie, that Topalov's complaint [i]was[/i] so based.
[/quote]

It is not a question of what I believe, but of the proper hearing that must be given to any complaint, during a match, that is serious and substantive.  And I might point out, refunding the $5,000 was the arbiters' way of saying that Topalov's complaint was not wholly frivolous.

Naturally, complaints must be taken at face value, at least until they are seen to be absurd or utterly lacking in merit.  Otherwise, you institute a serious discouragement to legitimate complaints being made.  I do not say that Topalov's complaint was not underhanded or cynical -- I have no way of knowing whether that is the case.  I do say that such a complaint deserves to be taken seriously and dealt with objectively.  That, it seems to me, is just what the arbiters did.

  

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Markovich
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #71 - 09/29/06 at 23:43:30
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StuntLinguist wrote on 09/29/06 at 20:23:54:
Quote:
I would not assume that, nor do I think it is useful to criticize the decision of the arbiters on the alleged ground that it is not worded consistently.  The decision is the decision; it is clear; most pertinently, as you point out, both match participants have agreed in advance that it is binding and final. 


They provided the findings from their investigation, not me. This is not a matter of semantics. If there were evidence uncovered that led them to their decision, then where is it? They didn't provide it and mentioned the evidence that they do have (video of numerous trips). We don't accuse men of being pedophiles for coaching minor league baseball (or at least those who do are ignored rather than catered to). 

Quote:
It is pure conjecture whether the arbiter's thought that Topalov would depart if they did not throw him a bone.


Other than his written letter threatening to withdraw from the match ...


Quote:
It would be highly unusual if a committee of International Arbiters put into the text of a decision that it was decided on such a basis. 


And yet, curiously, they did.

StuntLinguist




No, I agree, it is not a matter of semantics.  It is a matter of conjecture and leaping to conclusions about the reasons for the ruling -- of your doing so, that is.  Unless and until the arbiters have more to say on the subject, such conclusions as yours will remain speculative.
  

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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #70 - 09/29/06 at 21:26:59
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MNb wrote on 09/29/06 at 21:06:40:
My girlfriend now is even more convinced, that chess is the most ridiculous sport mankind ever invented. I do not see any way to contradict her.

Huh, we all know that, why do you think otherwise?
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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MNb
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #69 - 09/29/06 at 21:06:40
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My girlfriend now is even more convinced, that chess is the most ridiculous sport mankind ever invented. I do not see any way to contradict her.
  

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StuntLinguist
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #68 - 09/29/06 at 20:23:54
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Quote:
I would not assume that, nor do I think it is useful to criticize the decision of the arbiters on the alleged ground that it is not worded consistently.  The decision is the decision; it is clear; most pertinently, as you point out, both match participants have agreed in advance that it is binding and final.  


They provided the findings from their investigation, not me. This is not a matter of semantics. If there were evidence uncovered that led them to their decision, then where is it? They didn't provide it and mentioned the evidence that they do have (video of numerous trips). We don't accuse men of being pedophiles for coaching minor league baseball (or at least those who do are ignored rather than catered to). 

Quote:
It is pure conjecture whether the arbiter's thought that Topalov would depart if they did not throw him a bone.


Other than his written letter threatening to withdraw from the match ...


Quote:
It would be highly unusual if a committee of International Arbiters put into the text of a decision that it was decided on such a basis.  


And yet, curiously, they did.

StuntLinguist

  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #67 - 09/29/06 at 19:08:26
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StuntLinguist wrote on 09/29/06 at 18:04:16:

According to the appeals committee's own ruling "In the appeal there is an exaggeration of the number of times that Mr. Kramnik visited the toilet. Despite there being an unusual number of visits, this is insufficient on its own to come to a conclusion." I would assume that a ruling of no change would follow such a statement. However, both players' bathrooms were closed and consolidated into a single, new bathroom.


I would not assume that, nor do I think it is useful to criticize the decision of the arbiters on the alleged ground that it is not worded consistently.  The decision is the decision; it is clear; most pertinently, as you point out, both match participants have agreed in advance that it is binding and final.
StuntLinguist wrote on 09/29/06 at 18:04:16:

To sum up, the appeals comittee was right to consider the appeal and to give a ruling, however the ruling, by their own admission, has no evidentiary foundation. I can only assume that their decision was based on the wording before the decisions were listed:  "In order that the World Championship can continue running smoothly, the Appeals Committee has decided..."

i.e. In order to prevent topalov from leaving, we are allowing one of his demands.


It is illegitimate to attempt to read into the arbiters' decision any  supposed reasons for it, other than those made clearly explicit.  "In order that the WC can continue running smoothly..." looks like pro forma phraseology to me.  It is pure conjecture whether the arbiter's thought that Topalov would depart if they did not throw him a bone. If that indeed is what they thought, it still would not have been a legitimate basis for making a decision.  It would be highly unusual if a committee of International Arbiters put into the text of a decision that it was decided on such a basis.

By the way, dear friends, have never particularly cared who wins this match.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #66 - 09/29/06 at 18:53:20
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Yes, I certainly agree with Taljechin that Kramnik's words don't provide Topalov with any kind of justification. In agreeing with micawber I was agreeing that they were unfortunate, as being provocative, not that they served to excuse Topalov.
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #65 - 09/29/06 at 18:49:28
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Here is my position on this (I should state up front that I have been cheering for Topalov in this match).

Do I think Kramnik is/was cheating?  No.

But, seeing as there were allegations of cheating in San Luis and then the players caught cheating in the US it should have been the number one priority of FIDE and both players to ensure that no cheating is going on.  The FIDE has dropped the ball on this.  Also, in my opinion, there is no way that Kramnik could not have known how his unusual actions would appear to his opponent.  Simply put each player had access to only one room that is not monitored.  That is the bathroom - it should be used as a bathroom.  A player can not spend most of time in the unmonitored bathroom and not expect to arouse suspicions.  Come on - this is the freakin World Championships.  If you are going to spend a good deal of your time in a room, then it should be monitored either by a camera or by an arbiter.  That is only common sense to me.

  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #64 - 09/29/06 at 18:40:02
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Kramnik may feel insulted now. But he should have thought twice about his insults to Topalov at the press conference after the fourth game (see my previous message #57# in this thread.


That sounds like a typical 'blame the victim' argument seen in rape trials. 'If she'd had had a longer skirt he wouldn't have raped her' is not a valid defence. And likewise Kramnik must have the right to express his opinions on the game just played (and he didn't really have any problems drawing that game - did he?) at a press conference, without being accused of cheating as a 'consequence'. 

Topalov could very well have responded in kind if he felt belittled, without escalating the conflict ten levels or so.
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #63 - 09/29/06 at 18:32:42
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I'm prone to agree with both StuntLinguist and micawber. (I don't think this is inconsistent, and I hope I'm not rooting for anybody!) Of course, the more weight one attaches to micawber's point the more one might see Kramnik as morally bound to play. I'm not sure I quite know enough to know what to think here, but I'm tempted to think that the Committee's insulting acting without any evidentiary base weighs more heavily than Kramnik's earlier provocative rhetorical excesses.
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #62 - 09/29/06 at 18:32:36
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[quote author=Michael Ayton link=1159464663/60#60 date=1159553438][quote]Yes well, how can someone lodge a complaint that is based on the suspicion that his opponent is cheating without "effectively insinuating" precisely that? [/quote]

Well, quite! -- obviously they can't! I assume you believe, unlike(?) Willempie, that Topalov's complaint [i]was[/i] so based. But either way, was it not inevitable that Kramnik would feel that the directors' altering the toilet arrangements without consulting him represented more an endorsement of the complaint than an impartial investigative response to it?

All this does not mean I don't think Kramnik should play, but I'm not sure I think that he's morally obliged to. I think he has been significantly insulted.[/quote]
My opinion is that Topalov complained because:
-He got rather annoyed by the visits (when you just blundered away in two games everything about that guy will annoy you). Eg Korchnoi also lodged numerous complaints about player's behaviour (eg about Spassky only spending time at the board for making a move).
-Kramnik also stepped up the psychological game ("I didnt need to think during the game. I was thinking about football"), so "striking back" was necessary.
-He could make a reasonable sounding argument (remember the recent cheating?) to lodge a complaint.

I dont think Toppy seriously suspects any cheating (though he may subconsciously as I would), though I do suspect he was really annoyed if not insulted with Kramnik's behaviour.

Plus if I read Kramnik's reply to the FIDE I conclude the following:
-He didnt use the bathroom for toilet business. He used it as walking space and a place to monitor the game.
-He goes on about (right or wrongfully) partial committee decisions and demands their replacement.
-That the bathroom is in his contract and that this is thus a breach of contract. I know that in Holland in private law when there is a breach you have to give opportunity to remedy the situation. And that is where I think he went wrong.

So in short if I would have been Kramnik I would:
-Lodge a public complaint (as he did), propose to come to an arrangement (which he didnt) and maybe postpone the next game based on health and/or added stress if it was really such a major issue to have to play without my beloved toilet.
-Hold a press conference and talk about that the situation. Make a joke about the toilet being so comfortable and that I cant help but think that this complaint is nothing more than an attempt to distract me. Of course I find it a pity that Topalov would make such a big deal about something so minor and that the attention is now turned away from the games themselves.
-Play the game.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #61 - 09/29/06 at 18:17:53
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Kramnik may feel insulted now. But he should have thought twice about his insults to Topalov at the press conference after the fourth game (see my previous message #57# in this thread.
  
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Re: Tales from the Toilet...
Reply #60 - 09/29/06 at 18:10:38
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[quote]Yes well, how can someone lodge a complaint that is based on the suspicion that his opponent is cheating without "effectively insinuating" precisely that? [/quote]

Well, quite! -- obviously they can't! I assume you believe, unlike(?) Willempie, that Topalov's complaint [i]was[/i] so based. But either way, was it not inevitable that Kramnik would feel that the directors' altering the toilet arrangements without consulting him represented more an endorsement of the complaint than an impartial investigative response to it?

All this does not mean I don't think Kramnik should play, but I'm not sure I think that he's morally obliged to. I think he has been significantly insulted.
  
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