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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Fritz9 and Topalov (Read 34452 times)
IMJohnCox
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #25 - 10/05/06 at 10:25:26
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Actually of course Topalov lives in Spain, doesn't he? Or did? So perhaps that's why the Spanish seem to like him, not the Shirov connection.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #24 - 10/05/06 at 10:01:47
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That must be right, mustn’t it (anti-Russian, that is)? Danailov’s obviously playing the Russian-state-machine card for all it’s worth, and he must know what plays well in ex-Soviet satellite states.

There are various constituencies which will always side against Kramnik no matter what the rights and wrongs – Kasparov fans, Shirov fans (lots of Spaniards on the message boards backing Topalov), ex-Soviet states, and grandmasters of the sort of strength who used to play (or hope to play) in the FIDE Mickey Mouse knockouts and have the best payday of their year – Kotronias on ICC for example. You know the sort – the ones who go on about how anyone can maintain a 2700 rating if all they do is draw in supertournaments and it’s not so easy in opens, and so on. The Greeks seem to be rather more pro-FIDE and hence pro-Topalov as well, presumably because they feel insulted by the general Western assumption that Macropoulos is at best a clown who couldn’t find his arse with an atlas, and at worst a crook.

Then there’s the 78%-Fritz-and-50-visits-to-the-toilet-he-must-be-dodgy group, who can be found largely on ICC channels and among non-chessplayers, and whom we might broadly categorise as uninformed and/or morons. But that’s pretty much it. I haven’t read a single reasoned defence of Topalov’s behaviour from anywhere else. On the whole the I-love-Topalov-because-he’s-so-exciting brigade have changed sides in the light of his behaviour, as far as I can see, and very understandably so.

I’m almost tempted to write one myself.

By the way, Tony, you're getting dissed on chessninja as 'just the usual suspects' signing that letter of support for Kramnik.......
  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #23 - 10/05/06 at 09:02:03
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The Rumanian Forums seem to be very anti-Kramnik, too, but maybe they just don't like Russians?!
Is it a cultural thing? Or a chess thing? Leaving Frtiz & toilet aside, Topalov does have a much more exciting style, after all! Undecided
  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #22 - 10/05/06 at 06:08:37
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I don't recall game 3 being quite as long as Danailov suggests (he says 56 moves, TWIC says 38), but probably he's not even bothering to use the games from this match.  Just make up whatever numbers you want -- this isn't aimed at chessplayers, but at a wider audience, which is more easily convinced that sport is rife with cheating.

Incidentally, I went ahead and Fritzed a recent game of mine against a 1250 rated player.  After leaving theory with his 14th move, he played an incredible 8/10 moves which agreed with Fritz8's top line at depth 12 (I am too impatient to wait longer) -- 80%!  I should definitely report this guy to the TD.  Of course, he also resigned instead of playing 25th move since mate was forced...

Of course I can hardly say that I am surprised.  Kramnik is supposed to have the white pieces in the next game, and since the Topaloo defense was good enough for the full point last time, why not try another gambit?
  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #21 - 10/05/06 at 05:23:40
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Scholostic chess, no doubt, helps chess grow in any country, if Indian experience is anything to go by. But the thread is thoroughly hijacked.

I'm also amazed that people are blaming only Danailov. I run a department in a company. If I do something like this either it's with my Boards approval or I'm sacked. As simple as that. Topalov is proving himself to be a toxic waste. I'm amazed he even has fans outside Bulgaria.

@ John Cox
No. Anand is not that famous in India as you guys think. I mean, everybody knows Anand by name. Period. Quite a few recogonise him on the road. But, he doesn't have space in Billboards. Unlike Topalov, Anand cannot sell toilet soap (pun intended) in TV. That's an exclusive territory of Tendulkar or Dravid. Or even Sania Mirza or Mahesh Bhupathi. Not Anand. And None will recogonise Sasikiran or Harikrishna. No matter, how much we love it, chess is a hobby, niche field at best. Like gardening or dog breeding. 



  

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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #20 - 10/05/06 at 03:00:26
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Buzz wrote on 10/05/06 at 01:30:25:
As an American I must say that the overall majority of 'mature' chessplayers find these allegations made by the Toppa camp to be out of line.  As a member of the over 30 crowd on ICC I can tell you that a good bulk of 'American' players are children & teenagers hence the rather imature reactions. This is the curse of American chess!

To clarify:  This is what the Susan Polgar's and the rest of this ilk have done to chess here in the US with the overemphasis on schoolastic/childrens events in chess. The folks over here can't figure out why the USCF and it's magazine are doing poorly...again too much emphasis on chess and children. The game needs to be shown in a better light as far as adult tastes are concerned. As an adult American chess player I do not subscribe to one US based Chess Magaizine. I do subscribe to 3 European mags which provide better coverage of major chess events from a more mature angle. US chess is in trouble but there are a few of the 'old hands' floating around still and one can hope that things do get better.....   Cry

I've always felt that the large number of young players and emphasis on scholastic chess were some of the strengths of the American Chess scene.  Our young players represent the future of American chess, don't they?

Having only started playing competetive chess in my 40s, however, I understand you point.  I suppose the immaturity (percentagewise) of American chessplayers may account for John's observations from, for example, chessninja.com.

Then again, living in a country where GWB can get elected — twice! — a certain per capita idiocy is to be expected for Americans of any age.
  

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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #19 - 10/05/06 at 01:30:25
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As an American I must say that the overall majority of 'mature' chessplayers find these allegations made by the Toppa camp to be out of line.  As a member of the over 30 crowd on ICC I can tell you that a good bulk of 'American' players are children & teenagers hence the rather imature reactions. This is the curse of American chess!

To clarify:  This is what the Susan Polgar's and the rest of this ilk have done to chess here in the US with the overemphasis on schoolastic/childrens events in chess. The folks over here can't figure out why the USCF and it's magazine are doing poorly...again too much emphasis on chess and children. The game needs to be shown in a better light as far as adult tastes are concerned. As an adult American chess player I do not subscribe to one US based Chess Magaizine. I do subscribe to 3 European mags which provide better coverage of major chess events from a more mature angle. US chess is in trouble but there are a few of the 'old hands' floating around still and one can hope that things do get better.....   Cry

  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #18 - 10/04/06 at 23:29:41
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Yes, to be sure my observation of the USA is confined to the on-line community. But, say, Jon Jacobs doesn't strike me as being a drunk, and he's always posting long tedious stuff with links to this or that august body discussing his anti-cheating protocol. And from what I can gather he seems to be taken seriously by a surprisingly large proportion of the US chess scene (any proportion at all being reasonably surprising in my view).
  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #17 - 10/04/06 at 23:26:08
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Eh,

There are obviously a lot of folks at chessninja concerned with cheating, but if we take this small sample as representative of the american chess community then clearly they're all drunks, too Smiley  As usual the loudest and craziest make everyone look bad (fischer). But I digress.

SL
  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #16 - 10/04/06 at 23:15:08
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That shower sex scene - I guess it would have to be Madame Ojjeh, no? Do you reckon Kim Basinger could manage it with a bit of dressing down? Or possibly some of those Kalmykian escort girls who are always photographed meeting them at the airport could be worked in. I suppose Lucy Liu could do a job in that role?

I like your ideas for Gazza. And you're right of course - in Hollywood obviously the Russian would have to lose (apologies if that's more British arrogance on my part).

Kramnik, by the way, was every bit as dynamic and exciting as Topalov up to about 1998/9. I think he deliberately changed his style after the Shirov match because he recognised that to win the title he would have to - just as Alekhine did. Topalov never did, and that's precisely why I've always wanted Kramnik to win (apart from Topalov being a classless breadhead, of course): in the end beauty to me in chess is about correctness and perfection, not about bluff and playing for complications.
  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #15 - 10/04/06 at 23:01:57
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Try chessninja.com and check back for the threads on the US Open (or do I mean World Open) cheating scandal. Then come back and tell me I'm wrong. Indeed a comparison over the present episode speaks for itself. Topalov has no defenders on this (UK-based) board. He has some over there.

Or if you prefer hop over to ICC and try channel 250.

Or just look at this thread and Markovich's observation that if his opponent went to the loo ten times in a game he'd inform the arbiter. I've never heard any British player say such a thing and I think here such a reaction would be considered bordering on laughable.

I don't see what it's got to do with British arrogance or any other kind of arrogance, frankly. It's a national characteristic like many another. According to my observations Americans are more likely to believe people are cheating at chess than other nations. They might be right or they might be wrong: nobody knows.
  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #14 - 10/04/06 at 22:59:35
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TopNotch wrote on 10/04/06 at 22:11:02:
Pro Topalov fan I gather.


Absolutely! I think he's a great player and I've always found his games to be exciting and full of energy. Certainly much more than those of Kramnik  Grin
Yet I can't approve what's done in his name at this match. I blame most of it on Danailov and I think the best way for Topalov to restore his dignity is to fire that guy. I would love to see him win this match (I don't think it will happen, though. Topalov is not in good shape.) but not with points won by forfeit, and not with silly mindgames, but by outplaying Kramnik on the board and nowhere else.



Quote:
You obviously haven't seen enough Hollywood movies.


I obviously have seen the wrong ones. Still, if the move is filmed after 1993 then you're right about that shower sex scene  Wink I just wonder who might be in it? Are the some female seconds present??
The other stuff... sounds exciting yet stupid  Grin
Oh, and the soundtrack will not be played by some disgusting teenage rockband but by the one and only Hans Zimmer!

P.S. Yeah, Garry Kasparov would also show up, as a Mister-Miyagi-like mentor giving instructions to Topalov before the last game.
"Veselin-san walk on road, hm? Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later get squish just like grape. Here, exchange sacrifice, same thing. Either you sacrifice "yes" or sacrifice "no." You sacrifice "guess so"... just like grape. Understand?"
  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #13 - 10/04/06 at 22:36:10
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/04/06 at 21:07:35:
The only other people I've found who place any credence on this rubbish are Americans - not the more intelligent ones, obviously. It really is very striking how much more ready they are to believe cheating allegations than Europeans. Interesting. I suspect it's got something to do with Bill Goichberg and the whole why-shouldn't-palookas-win-money approach they have there.

Hmm...  Sounds about as valid as Danailov's statistics and a lot like (all too familiar) British arrogance to me.  Perhaps I'm a bit biased.  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #12 - 10/04/06 at 22:21:35
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RE: "In a hollywood movie Topalov would - in a dramatic scene - fire the evil manager and then continue the match with his newly gained integrity and beat Kramnik in convincing style in the next games. Of course the whole thing climaxes in game 5 being replayed and Topa needing a win with black that he eventually achieves after an epic fight!"

You obviously haven't seen enough Hollywood movies.
In a Hollywood movie the two players would fall in love with the same mysterious women.
There would be at least one sex scene in a shower.

As for the finale, there would be a gunfight at the end of the last game and as one of the players lies bleeding to death in the others arms he would look up and say "forgive me...I've always known you were the real champion."   
Music swells and the other yells "NOOOOOOOO!!!!"

Then the entire playing hall would blow up in a ball of fire with a little ring around it and the mystery girl would pull off her latex mask to reveal she was actually Garry Kasparov.

Yep.   
That's how it would go.
And the soundtrack would mostly feature music from scantily clad teenagers.
  

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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #11 - 10/04/06 at 22:12:57
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Oh, I think there's no question it's true (about Americans). Check out for example the channels on ICC, or the excellent forum at chessninja.com.

Might have something to do with the whole land-of-opportunity thing, but I think the chess culture is more likely. Although, as I said somewhere else, the Americans have long taken the lead in cheating accusations in bridge also. But that was because they didn't like being beaten at it.

  
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