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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Fritz9 and Topalov (Read 34450 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #10 - 10/04/06 at 22:11:02
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Meat wrote on 10/04/06 at 20:56:51:
In a hollywood movie Topalov would - in a dramatic scene - fire the evil manager and then continue the match with his newly gained integrity and beat Kramnik in convincing style in the next games. Of course the whole thing climaxes in game 5 being replayed and Topa needing a win with black that he eventually achieves after an epic fight!  Wink
If only things would go that way...


Pro Topalov fan I gather.

Tops Smiley
  
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OstapBender
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #9 - 10/04/06 at 21:43:37
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HgMan wrote on 10/04/06 at 21:09:42:
Ummm...

What happens in November when Kramnik plays Fritz?

He'll hide Topalov in his restroom?
  
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Nietzsche
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #8 - 10/04/06 at 21:39:17
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RE: "Isn't 9 Rc1 the main line against Lasker's Defence?!"

Yes, it is.  I was merely mentioning which line was played.

RE: "These stats are utter bollocks. Apart from anything else 60-80% is generally accepted as the normal figure for computer match-ups with the top GMs."

Is that the normal range?  Its good to at least have an estimate, thanks.   

By the way, to be a bit cheeky, I decided to play a 5 minute blitz game on the internet and then compare it to Fritz.
Once I was out of theory (it was a Tarrasch)... I played the "suggested" move 19 out of 29 moves (66%).   
And again, I'm a complete patzer (untitiled).   

So, if anything, I would think 60% as the minimum might be a bit low.   


Cheers

ps - "It really is very striking how much more ready they are to believe cheating allegations than Europeans." 
I'm not sure if that's true or if its just your perception, but when you've got a President like Bush, you tend to suspect the worse in people.  Americans have been let down so much lately, you just sort of expect stupidity and corruption.  Also, since America is the 'land of opportunity' there are many. many people trying to get ahead 'by any means necessary' whereas in Britain there is more of the 'quiet desparation'-thing.
  
"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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HgMan
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #7 - 10/04/06 at 21:09:42
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Ummm...

What happens in November when Kramnik plays Fritz?
  
"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #6 - 10/04/06 at 21:07:35
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Isn't 9 Rc1 the main line against Lasker's Defence?!

These stats are utter bollocks. Apart from anything else 60-80% is generally accepted as the normal figure for computer match-ups with the top GMs. 

I gather that on Bulgarian forums they all think Kramnik's actually cheating and their man is struggling against heroic odds. I find it a little hard to imagine the more grown-up Bulgarian chessplayers think that, but of course internet forums are different. I assume Danailov is just shooting for the Bulgarian endorsement market, (Topalov there is like Anand in India) and of course preparing the ground for when he loses. He can't think this will rile Kramnik - clearly if Kramnik can play after what's already happened he has now made up his mind to ignore all this and just beat the guy - and he certainly can't think it will help Topalov - if Topalov suspects with even one per cent of his mind that Kramnik is indeed getting help then he will lose for sure.

The only other people I've found who place any credence on this rubbish are Americans - not the more intelligent ones, obviously. It really is very striking how much more ready they are to believe cheating allegations than Europeans. Interesting. I suspect it's got something to do with Bill Goichberg and the whole why-shouldn't-palookas-win-money approach they have there. Obviously that leads to much more cheating, and of course they have had several high-profile cases.
  
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Meat
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #5 - 10/04/06 at 20:56:51
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In a hollywood movie Topalov would - in a dramatic scene - fire the evil manager and then continue the match with his newly gained integrity and beat Kramnik in convincing style in the next games. Of course the whole thing climaxes in game 5 being replayed and Topa needing a win with black that he eventually achieves after an epic fight!  Wink
If only things would go that way...
  
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Nietzsche
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #4 - 10/04/06 at 20:18:32
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That's fantastic news OstapBender.

I can't imagine anyone being happy with Danailov's "performance" thus far and I think its actually making Topalov feel guilty.   The one point he might get this entire match could well be the forfeit.  He stands to be embarassed by both the match score and his manager.  This match has been just awful for Topalov and I hope it convinces all professional chess players to stay far, far away from Danailov.
  
"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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OstapBender
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #3 - 10/04/06 at 20:06:58
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See: http://chesspro.ru/match/events/

where Peter Svidler wrote:

Quote:
I believe that the actions of Silvio Danailov could - and still can, as is evident from his latest outpouring on the subject of percentages - do untold harm to the chess world. What's more, I suspect that Veselin Topalov is slowly coming round to that point of view - I was present at the press-conference after Game 6, and it seemed from his demeanor and his answers (he looked extremely embarrassed, and said he was 'not too proud' of what has been done in his name) that he is aware just how damaged his reputation could be by his manager's actions.
  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #2 - 10/04/06 at 19:50:12
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Hello,

It is so obvious that need to do this for fairness, that Danailov is making himself look like a fool more than anything else. Also given Topalov's comments the previous day, who is in control of the Topalov team.

Bye Joh S
  
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Nietzsche
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #1 - 10/04/06 at 19:33:10
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As a start, I ran game one through Fritz 8 [Bahrain] and let it get through about 14 ply for a quick suggestion.

I started with 12...Ba6 since that is were Danailov started (and by the way, Fritz does suggest 12...Ba6).

Topalov played the top suggestion 17 of the next 24 moves.  (71%)

It then gets difficult to talk about a top suggestion (around move 37-42) because the computer sees several moves as 0.00 (since there is a sort of perpetual)  Any move that maintains this draw is considered of equal value and I don't see which move would be considered best.

After Kramnik's 43.Nd8 the evaluations stop looking like 0.00 for the top lines.
Topalov now plays the top suggestion 7 of the next 8 moves.  Then its back to 0.00 again.
Topalov then avoids any of the 0.00 suggestions with 51...Kf5.  He plays the top move for 3 of the next 5 and then blunders the game on move 57...f5??.
The rest of the game sees Toppy going 11 of his last 17.

Overall, when not counting the moves when several moves are all 0.00 - Topalov played the suggested move 35 of 49 times (71%)
If we counted all the moves that maintained the draw as "best" then Topalov played 46 out of 62 times (74%)

In Danailov's accusation, they show Kramnik playing the "suggested" move 63%. 

I actually think Fritz9 would suggest 21..g5! as well as other moves that my Fritz doesn't, which would result in an even higher match %.

I really hope someone with Fritz9 can take a look at at least one of the other games and draw some conclusions.
It seems to me that both players should match Fritz the majority of the time.  I just think it would be funny if Topalov actually tended to match Fritz more often than Kramnik (as he does in this game).

I also think its amazing that with Topalov unable to beat Kramnik and there being only a couple of white games left, the Bulgarians are spending their time matching Kramnik's moves to Fritz.  They're busy preparing excuses and accusation, but not trying to find a way to win over the board.


That says a lot,
Nietzsche

ps - I checked my last game out with Fritz 8 and once we were out of book (I played 9.Rc1 against Lasker's Defense) , I played the "suggested" move 34 out of 51 times (67%).

Not too bad for a guy without any titles!








« Last Edit: 10/04/06 at 20:43:01 by Nietzsche »  
"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Nietzsche
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Fritz9 and Topalov
10/04/06 at 17:50:43
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15 minutes before the game started Danailov once again accused Kramnik of cheating.
Appearently 78% of Kramnik's moves are the same as Frtiz9 and of course Satan...I mean Danailov, wanted the world to know that.

Well, I suppose Kramnik's amazingly long combinations and super-humanly accurate king side attacks have everyone suspicious.
What do you mean you don't remember any long combinations??  Roll Eyes

Anyway, as I don't have a copy of Fritz9, I cannot check this claim but lets just grant that Satan's ....I mean Danilov's, numbers are accurate this time.   Which, I might add, is a fairly generous concession.
But what about Topalov's moves?   
How often does his move match Fritz9?   

I would think that the top players would often find their moves are similar to Fritz.
If someone takes my pawn, I usually take back....When I'm in check, I usually get out of it.   
But I don't know how often the moves match...I don't know what is standard.

Anyway, I'm curious how many of Topalov's moves {given the same criteria} also match Fritz9.

Cheers,
Nietzsche
« Last Edit: 10/04/06 at 19:54:02 by Nietzsche »  
"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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