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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Fritz9 and Topalov (Read 34446 times)
MNb
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #55 - 10/07/06 at 22:06:11
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Did I provide you with enough examples of Karpov and his Team?
That the presence of doctor Zoukar or the KGB did improve Korchnoi's play
I serioiusly doubt. Other GM's have stated that Korchnoi told them he had
been nervous by the massive KGB presence during the 1978 match.

The agreement about doctor Zoukar is on public record. 
His presence in one of the front rows was widely reported by western journalists.

Anyway Karpov wielded a lot of personal power in the Russian Chess Federation around
1978, and many GMs where of the opinion he could have ended the boycott after 
prolonging his title.


Matters are not as simple as presented by Micawber. The facts are indisputable, but nobody ever has even found indications, that Karpov is responsible. Sure, he did not object on public either, Karpov was not a saint. But there is one indication, that Karpov was not altogether happy with the way Kortsjnoj was treated.
After Kortsjnoj's escape to the west, the Sovjet Chess Federation published an appeal to boycott him. It was signed by all Sovjet GM's except four. Two of these four I remember clearly: Spassky and ....Karpov.
There is not much evidence of Karpov's personal power except the accusations of Kortsjnoj and Kasparov. They are not exactly the most reliable sources; Kasparov has taken great benefit of political protection as well. Concerning Kortsnoj: the scandals around all candidate matches of 1977 say enough. Especially Polugajevsky played far below his normal level after intimidation by Kortsjnoj.
In 1975/1976 Kortsjnoj participated in the Hastings tournament; here his leave from Russia was prepared.
Frankly I do not see why Karpov's ethical standards should be rated lower than Topalov's, Kortsjnoj's or Kasparov's. In my opinion Topalov's bad behaviour in the current match is only equalled by Kortsjnoj's from 1977-1981. This does not justify the Sovjet boycott of course.
Just one little question. What have Kortsjnoj and Kasparov ever done in favour of Boris Gulko's case? Here we really have a chess career of a potential top 10 player effectively blocked.
  

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Keano
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #54 - 10/07/06 at 20:40:33
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/07/06 at 17:03:50:
Keano, I refer you to articles 12.1 and 12.6 of the Laws of Chess

Article 12.1 forbids a player to do anything which would bring the game into disrepute. 

Article 12.6 forbids a player to do anything which would distract an opponent. Nothing restricting that to actions during the game.

It is abundantly clear that Topalov is in breach of article 12.1. I look forward to hearing the sanction that Mr Gijssen decides to impose.

In any case, you say in defence of Topalov that he was not cheating, merely acting unethically. I do not recognise the difference.



Firstly it is not only tenuous but unprecedented the interpretation of the Laws of Chess you are trying to make - those laws are written for the game itself - can you quote me a precedent of them being applyed to actions outside of it? I cant see how, as the interpretation would be very subjective in any case - but is there any precedent of this? I know lawyers will argue anything, but this is getting ridiculous.

As for Topalov cheating, there is not a shred of evidence of this - I am sure you know the difference between unethical press releases and cheating in a game of chess. If the law you quote above can be applyed then "cheating" has taken place in almost every World Championship match, as there is nearly always a power struggle away from the board. Once again, Im tired of saying it now - the Danailov appeal (although accepted by the appeals committee as legitamate), and the Fritz press release, were in my opinion somewhat unethical and distasteful, and potentially damaging for the game in terms of sponsors - but please lets stop using this word "cheating", this it clearly was not.





  
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Keano
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #53 - 10/07/06 at 20:32:34
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OstapBender wrote on 10/07/06 at 15:45:15:

A difference between the cheating in the current match and so-called analogous instances cited from previous matches is that when Kramnik protested the cheating it cost him a forfeit point.  The loss of this point, not the ludicrous cheating accusations, has been the main (and essentially only) source of distraction for Kramnik - and it is costing him the match.  Comparisons to previous WCh matches are meaningless.  They are not similar instances; they did not have similar consequences.  If you pay attention to any grandmaster opinions (other than maybe Topalov's which we are not allowed to ask about!) they are all the same:  Kramnik was cheated and should have walked out on the match!!


I agree the forfeited point is a big problem in this match - but this is not a Topalov problem, it all stemmed from the incorrect Appeals committee verdict, the incorrect decision (in my opinion - although theoretically he was in the right) of the arbiter to start game 5, and then Kramniks decision to stay in the rest room. As  for Grandmasters saying they would have walked out - easy to say but if their match fee and World title depended on it I think you would find they make a different decision!
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #52 - 10/07/06 at 17:58:51
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My recollection of Baguio is that the nonsense started late on, about the time Korchnoi fought his way back into the match. My impression of Korchnoi is that he uses anger and hatred of the opponent as an energy. Although maybe you're going to say that the games he won were after Zoukhar was forced to retire.

I'm sure you are right about Zoukhar; I just don't remember it.

Another common theme of course is that Topalov is the first I've heard of since Karpov to have a parapsychologist. 'Nuff said, as we say in England.

I don't think we're disagreeing all that much. No-one could defend the Soviet chess machine's treatment of Korchnoi. I find Topalov's personal responsibility greater, though.

Glad you like my book btw.
  
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micawber
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #51 - 10/07/06 at 17:16:41
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@IM John Cox,

Did I provide you with enough examples of Karpov and his Team?
That the presence of doctor Zoukar or the KGB did improve Korchnoi's play
I serioiusly doubt. Other GM's have stated that Korchnoi told them he had
been nervous by the massive KGB presence during the 1978 match.

The agreement about doctor Zoukar is on public record. 
His presence in one of the front rows was widely reported by western journalists.

Anyway Karpov wielded a lot of personal power in the Russian Chess Federation around
1978, and many GMs where of the opinion he could have ended the boycott after 
prolonging his title.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #50 - 10/07/06 at 17:14:51
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Micawber - yes, thanks, I had forgotten about the seconds problem in 1974. But Karpov was the Soviet Union's favoured son, and you'd be asking a lot of him to do something about it. He didn't want to become an unperson either. Topalov has cynically decided on this for himself.

If you're right about Zoukhar reappearing in 1978 then the arbiters were gravely, gravely at fault. Just as they have been here. I don't want to defend Karpov, anyway.

Another distinction I would draw between that situation and this, besides Ostap B's, is that I don't believe Korchnoi was put off by the nonsense in Baguio. My impression was that if anything it made him play better.

I don't understand your distinction between protesting and not appearing. Not appearing was the protest. It is clear in retrospect that Kramnik should have refused to continue the match, as Karpov himself advised. Whether Kramnik overestimated his own ability to recover himself, or was (as internet rumours say) ordered by Putin to play, is hard to say. I remember saying when he decided to carry on that if he could win from the start of game six it would be an incredible feat. I think he underestimated the difficulties he would face psychologically and physically.

I just hope he can recover from this. He's such a great player and attractive personality, and I'm not sure he has the type of character to bear this sort of monstrous injustice easily.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #49 - 10/07/06 at 17:03:50
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Keano, I refer you to articles 12.1 and 12.6 of the Laws of Chess

Article 12.1 forbids a player to do anything which would bring the game into disrepute. 

Article 12.6 forbids a player to do anything which would distract an opponent. Nothing restricting that to actions during the game.

It is abundantly clear that Topalov is in breach of article 12.1. I look forward to hearing the sanction that Mr Gijssen decides to impose.

In any case, you say in defence of Topalov that he was not cheating, merely acting unethically. I do not recognise the difference.
  
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OstapBender
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #48 - 10/07/06 at 16:32:30
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micawber,

Your points about Karpov-Korchnoi matches are compelling enough.  A case could be made that Karpov's actions - albeit aided and perhaps ordained by the Soviet Union - in these matches were reprehensible and he did what he could to "steal" these matches from Korchnoi.  Given his situation, however, was Karpov really calling the shots there?

I don't think the Fischer game 2 forfeit is remotely anagous, BTW.  Fischer was not protesting unethical behavior on the part of his opponent; he simply shot himself in the foot.  (While it could be argued that Fischer's theatrics were calculated to unnerve Spassky, this is all very subjective and impossible to clearly demonstrate.)

Anyway, I see there is no point arguing about the uniqueness of Topalov's unethical behavior.  Any title he receieves as a result of this behavior will be tainted, however.  That perhaps the same can be said for a few past World Champions does not change this.
  

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micawber
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #47 - 10/07/06 at 15:57:14
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There is an analogy with Karpov-Korchnoi 1978. There had been negotations 
about the presence of doctor Zoukar and other things. The outcome had been
that the doctor was prohibited to sit in the first the first fifteen rows of the
audience or so. During the last game of the match he took his place in one
of the front rows. Korchnoi might have refused to play, but no doubt 
he would have lost the game and the match by forfeit. As it was the
Karpov team knew without doubt that Korchnoi was superstitious and the
presence of the doctor unnerved him. They did this with the single purpose to
influence the outcome of this all important game. Angry

By the way not the protesting cost Kramnik a game, but his decision not to play.
And that was certainly not unique. Fisher did not appear for the second game
of his match against Spassky and dropped a point.
Kasparov didnt appear for his candidates match against Korchnoi in 1983 and 
lost this match by forfeit. Only cunning negatiations, and an offer that Korchnoi
couldnt refuse, gave Kasparov a second chance to play this match.
(Korchnoi couldnt refuse the offer that the boycott against him should be lifted;
this boycott had been in place since 1976; on the other hand you might call
it blackmail: if he refused the offer the boycott would continue). Undecided


  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #46 - 10/07/06 at 15:45:15
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Keano wrote on 10/07/06 at 15:36:02:
IMJohnCox wrote on 10/07/06 at 10:15:29:
I can't think of any previous world champion who has made such a deliberate, cynical and unsportsmanlike off-board ploy. But the most obvious reason he won't be a fit person is that he hasn't won the title fairly, if he wins. I disagree that he hasn't been cheating. Distracting the opponent is against the laws of the game.


John - a bit tenuous this one, even for a lawyer! There is a law of chess not to distract your opponent during the game, and Topalov has followed this. You are referring to the off-the-board antics which I agree were meant to be a Kramnik distraction, but we have seen this before in many World ch matches, if computers were as strong back in those days we would doubtless have seen this same carry on, as it was we had to listen to hypnosis and parapsychologists and yogurt and all the rest of it. To make it clear I believe the tactics were unethical and reprehensible in my opinion, illegal I am afraid not, so cheating is not something you can bandy about so simply.

A difference between the cheating in the current match and so-called analogous instances cited from previous matches is that when Kramnik protested the cheating it cost him a forfeit point.  The loss of this point, not the ludicrous cheating accusations, has been the main (and essentially only) source of distraction for Kramnik - and it is costing him the match.  Comparisons to previous WCh matches are meaningless.  They are not similar instances; they did not have similar consequences.  If you pay attention to any grandmaster opinions (other than maybe Topalov's which we are not allowed to ask about!) they are all the same:  Kramnik was cheated and should have walked out on the match!!
  

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micawber
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #45 - 10/07/06 at 15:40:38
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ANSWER at mr Cox

Korchnoi was very much hindered and intimidated during his preparation for this 1974 match.
He was denied any strong second, while Karpov could demand the support of any 
GM he liked (for instance) Tall was added to the team during the match.

We dont have to take Korchnoi's word for this. Bronstein went to help Korchnoi with his
preparation during one week. On his return to Leningrad he was immediately 
sacced by his newspaper and thus denied an important source of income. Other GM's were
effectively warned away by this example.
Polugajevsky, another prospective second, was warned away as well. He let Korchnoi have 
some notes in a rather round about way.
After the match Korchnoi was denied tournaments abroad for a year or so.
As a matter of fact I think the tounament in the Netherlands where he "escaped" was his 
first tournament abroad since 1974.He did so mainly because he felt, that should he win
the candidates final, he wouldnt get a fair shot at the title.

And let not forget that he was under a boycott from 1976 till 1983. The boycott ended when he
agreed to replay his candidate match against Kasparov. A match Kasparov previously had lost
by forfeit. No one doubted that Karpov wielded enough power by 1978 that he might have
ended this boycott any time he liked. There is no more effective measure to destroy the career of
a GM than to deny him top level competition.

Korchnoi was pressured with his family not only around 1981, in fact this started as early
as 1977, when his son wrote (or was forced to write) a letter full of reproaches at the
adress of his father and a plea to return to the USSR.

Also in 1978 Karpovs delegation not only consisted of the infamous doktor Zoukar but of a number of
people with a non-descript function. Their build clearly suggesting this was KGB-personal, who used
chess boards for bashing in skulls in preference for anything else. The Karpov team thus suggested
to Korchnoi he still might have esaped the USSR be was still under threat.

PM.
I still like your book "starting out d4" even though it dont agree with your opinions. Wink

« Last Edit: 10/07/06 at 17:10:56 by micawber »  
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Keano
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #44 - 10/07/06 at 15:36:02
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/07/06 at 10:15:29:
I can't think of any previous world champion who has made such a deliberate, cynical and unsportsmanlike off-board ploy. But the most obvious reason he won't be a fit person is that he hasn't won the title fairly, if he wins. I disagree that he hasn't been cheating. Distracting the opponent is against the laws of the game.


John - a bit tenuous this one, even for a lawyer! There is a law of chess not to distract your opponent during the game, and Topalov has followed this. You are referring to the off-the-board antics which I agree were meant to be a Kramnik distraction, but we have seen this before in many World ch matches, if computers were as strong back in those days we would doubtless have seen this same carry on, as it was we had to listen to hypnosis and parapsychologists and yogurt and all the rest of it. To make it clear I believe the tactics were unethical and reprehensible in my opinion, illegal I am afraid not, so cheating is not something you can bandy about so simply.
  
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Keano
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #43 - 10/07/06 at 15:29:38
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MNb wrote on 10/06/06 at 21:08:47:
As Markovich does not want to discuss this anymore, let me takes his side (partially). It is also my impression that Americans are more susceptible for conspiracy theories than Brits or Dutch. At the other hand the only people I know, who were, are 100% Dutch. And even if my impression is right, this does not mean, that Markovich is. I never noticed it.
So the relevant point is, that this generalization does not contribute anything sensible to the subject. Markovich' nationality is not relevant for the point he makes: visiting the loo x times per game indicates cheating. So IM Cox should have omitted his generalization.
As explained before, I think Topalov and Dainalov have not done anything legally wrong. It is their ethics I think very low of. The law and ethics are very often not the same at all. T&D had another option: to request a search of both toilets just before the start of the games.
Those Kramnik/Fritz statistics also belong to the Ministry of Silly Walks.


I agree 100% with all of this, exactly right!  Cool
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #42 - 10/07/06 at 14:44:27
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Come on Micawber, what did Karpov do in 1974? I'm sure you're right but I just can't remember it.

1981 - yes, of course the Korchnoi's family thing was appalling. But by then clearly Karpov was the stronger anyway. 1978 I felt both sides were to blame, quite honestly.

I don't know your 1995 story but Fritz 5 was already well capable of finding moves strong humans would miss, I can assure you. It's hardly on a par with an accusation of cheating during a match, in any case.
  
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micawber
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #41 - 10/07/06 at 12:37:18
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Kramnik and Fritz. Smiley

Kramnik did actually made an insulting statement to an opponent concerning Fritz.
In their 1995 match Kramnik lost a game against Kamski, due to a good opening novelty.
Kramnik commented the Kamski team had only found this because they had used Fritz
in their preparation. Thus implying neither Kamski nor his seconds where strong enough 
to come up with the new moves on their own.
Since back then this involved fritz4 or fritz5 this statement was rather ridiculous.
  
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