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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Fritz9 and Topalov (Read 34437 times)
Willempie
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #70 - 10/09/06 at 11:37:59
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What it essentially boils down to is the following: You blame a lot of involved people except Kramnik for not taking the proper action. While you may be right and I seriously doubt the wisdom of the committee, there is only one person who made these bad decisions irreversible. By playing high stakes poker (ala Topalov just before) he tried to put the pressure on to get this decision reversed. However what he forgot is that with poker your bluff can get called.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Willempie
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #69 - 10/09/06 at 11:28:37
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/09/06 at 11:21:08:
Gijssen may or may not be a decent fellow; he's certainly well-regarded although I've never thought much of his views on chesscafe and he's been responsible (or so he claims) for at least one absolutely absrud rule change.

Not sure which rule change you refer to, but he is someone who rarely bends the rules, unlike say a football ref who may let the same tackle slide with a warning and another with a yellow depending on the sort of match.
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And of course none of us knows what transpires behind the scenes. But do you really not think a strong arbiter could have done more than seems to have been done to prevent the match being settled in a law court - which however entertaining must be the ultimate faillure for the match officials.

Nope. Imo an arbiter is just there to regulate the game according to the rules and regulations (I am sure you read that piece about the guy who had a forfeit reversed, in this case the arbiter couldnt do anything about that either as you can read). As such I think he can only deal with postponing games if players request this. Afaik Kramnik didnt do this.
He certainly shouldnt act upon players locking themselves up in their room Wink
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Amused by the picture on chessbase of the arbiters conferring. The assistant is..........................some Greek bloke you've never heard of. No doubt someone Macropolous owes a favour to.

Imo an arbiter's role is to get the sandwiches in time for the players and not much else. So I presume that assistant is there to get Gijssen his sandwich in time
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #68 - 10/09/06 at 11:21:08
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Gijssen may or may not be a decent fellow; he's certainly well-regarded although I've never thought much of his views on chesscafe and he's been responsible (or so he claims) for at least one absolutely absrud rule change.

And of course none of us knows what transpires behind the scenes. But do you really not think a strong arbiter could have done more than seems to have been done to prevent the match being settled in a law court - which however entertaining must be the ultimate faillure for the match officials.

Amused by the picture on chessbase of the arbiters conferring. The assistant is..........................some Greek bloke you've never heard of. No doubt someone Macropolous owes a favour to.
  
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Willempie
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #67 - 10/09/06 at 10:13:39
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/08/06 at 15:22:26:
If Gijssen had been a man of integrity, intelligence and courage he would have called the managers together before game 5 and said,

Uhm now you are pushing your argument way over the top. So far I havent seen Gijssen do anything ever to suggest anything remotely truthful in this statement. 
And trust me I have seen the man live in action.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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TopNotch
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #66 - 10/08/06 at 16:11:23
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Korchnoi: 'I would have walked out!'
07.10.2006 Actually, if we were sensationalist our headline would have been: Viktor Korchnoi: "I agree with Karpov!" For once the great chess veteran of three world championship matches joins his arch-opponent – in these matches and life in general – in supporting Kramnik in the World Championship crisis. Viktor is also worried about chess being dragged into the toilet. How will we find sponsors?


Korchnoi: “In Kramnik’s place, I would have walked out!”


Victor Lvovich, share with us your impressions about the Kramnik-Topalov match.

The match creates a strange impression. I have watched how Topalov generally plays. In every event, at the start he falls behind, almost as if he’s pretending to be playing badly, and then at the end, he wins every single game. For that reason, I am fearful about the end of this match.

What do you think about the off-board controversy?

The underlying cause of all this is the articles, which have appeared in the press, about how Topalov allegedly has been and is using computer assistance during games. And then, the moment Illumzhinov had left his fiefdom, Topalov’s team took the initiative and accused Kramnik of cheating.

It is no secret that you signed a letter in support of Kramnik. How do you think Kramnik should handle this difficult situation, what steps should he take?

It is a rare case when I am in total solidarity with Anatoly Karpov. In Kramnik’s place, I would just have walked out. 

Do you think Topalov has been involved in all these shenanigans, or is it just the people around him?

I do not believe the others can do anything without his approval.

What is going to happen to world title matches in the future?

All this talk of how someone or other is cheating leaves its mark on chess, on its integrity and honesty, and is very bad. But I hope that means will be found to prevent information being passed, and so to preserve chess as it is.

But is it so bad? After all, thanks to the scandals in Elista, chess has made the front pages of the newspapers. Perhaps the game can take advantage of this increase in popularity?

I find it hard to believe that all this talk about toilets is going to lead to an increase in sponsors – after all, it is pretty dirty publicity. 

What would you like to say to Vladimir Kramnik? 

That he should walk out!

The original interview, conducted by A Kentler appeared on the e3e5 web site.
Translation by Steve Giddins

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #65 - 10/08/06 at 15:27:46
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One point which is quite clear is that in future World Championship matches no protest which is not signed by the players should be entertained and that any press release on behalf of a player which is not signed by him should be treated as a serious breach of the match's regulations.
  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #64 - 10/08/06 at 15:22:26
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I agree that Topalov may not be in much control - he's never pulled any of this garbage before - but I don't think it makes much difference. Indeed his behaviour at the press conference strongly suggested that he wasn't in control. 

Keano - a complaint of cheating made without belief in its truth and with the intention to distract the opponent is clearly against the Laws in my view. I don't find that far-fetched at all. Whether that's what happened - well, I think it was. I can't see any other motive.

I've actually had a quick look at the laws of chess and they're a lot more sensible than you'd think. In particular, they open with a statement that they are not intended to cover all situations and that the arbiter has power to do whatever he thinks appropriate to ensure a level playing field (I paraphrase).

If Gijssen had been a man of integrity, intelligence and courage he would have called the managers together before game 5 and said,

"I understand that tapes of Mr Kramnik in his rest room have been supplied to Mr Topalov's team without my knowledge or that of Mr Kramnik, and that a protest has been made alleging Mr Kramnik made 50 visits to the lavatory during game 3 when in fact the Appeals Committee has said that the true figure was 18. In my opinion these actions on Mr Topalov's part constitute bringing the game into disrepute contrary to article 12.1 and are also calculated to distract the opponent contrary to article 12.6.

I see that game five is scheduled to commence shortly. In my opinion it is not desirable that it should do so and I declare a 30 minute postponement. When the game starts I will consider whether to declare it forfeit by Mr Topalov on the grounds of his breaches of the Laws. If this decision is successfully appealed I shall resign from the match and publicise these events and my view of them. The two teams may like to see whether they can discuss the matter and reach a resolution in the meantime. If necessary I will consider postponing the start of game five further until tomorrow."

Of course Gijssen would not have obtained further lucrative work from FIDE or from M-Tel (was he the arbiter in Sofia, I wonder?!), but we would then have had a proper contest, and he would have been doing his duty as an arbiter and for the good of the game much better than he did.

But as I say, this would have taken brains, bowels and vision. Nothing in his column at chesscafe has ever suggested to me that Gijssen possesses any of those characteristics; on the contrary he seems to me to be that most un-Dutch thing, a pompous, rulebound, ass.
  
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Keano
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #63 - 10/08/06 at 10:41:12
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Very perceptive point StuntLinguist - I hadnt thought about it like this but the (potential) scenario you paint sounds quite plausible.
  
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StuntLinguist
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #62 - 10/08/06 at 06:56:16
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Scholar wrote on 10/08/06 at 06:33:59:


If I hire someone to represent me, and he makes statements which I do not repudiate, why should I not be assumed to endorse them?

I understand that you can make some claim that Topalov is not responsible for the actions of his team, I simply disagree.  To accept your point of view would require me to believe that Topalov is being coerced in some fashion to accept Danailov as manager, and is unable to repudiate or control him because of some large conspiracy which surrounds him.

This seems to be about as likely as there being a computer chip implanted in Topalov's brain.

As far as Topalov being the "boss" I ask only this: what could conceivably happen if, in the next press conference, Topalov makes strong a strong statement apologizing for the actions of Danailov, and urging the press to ignore the rest of his misguided rants.  Is Danailov going to fire Topalov?  Bulgaria going to prevent him from travelling outside of the country to play chess?

To accept your point of view seems to require rather strong hypothesis for which I have no evidence.  It is more likely that Topalov's relationship to Danailov is like a client to a bulldog lawyer: he is vaguely embarrassed by what is done in his name, but sees the results and so stays silent.

There is no honor in that.


You're right, scholar, the bulldog analogy is quite likely. The scenario I'm describing has little to do with a conspiracy. Basically, I'm saying that perhaps important, powerful or influential people (government, etc) have sponsored topalov. I really don't know much about the state of chess in Bulgaria, only the general status of chessplayers in the former USSR and that is what I am drawing the analogy to. He is essentially their employee. I'm saying these folks also hired Topalov's seconds, and other support staff, including danailov. In such a case Topalov is not Danailov's boss at all. It's also quite possible that Danailov is completely under Topalov's control and is only performing the unpleasant tasks assigned to him. I can't claim any of these scenarios are correct, however to assume one is correct based on the way things work in the western world might be a bit of a stretch.

SL
  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #61 - 10/08/06 at 06:33:59
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StuntLinguist wrote on 10/08/06 at 05:27:13:
Scholar wrote on 10/08/06 at 04:24:36:
StuntLinguist wrote on 10/07/06 at 23:32:16:
Why are we so convinced that Topalov is the boss of his team? It's difficult to my western way of thinking to believe otherwise, but Bulgaria is slightly different than Canada Smiley From what I've seen posted and reported, this is simply the current assumption. I'll claim that it's equally likely that the Bulgarian government or Topalov's sponsors are the true bosses of the team and of Danailov.

SL


Would this make the conduct any more likely, or Topalov's behavior better?  I read the comment (maybe by Mark Crowther?) that all Topalov had to do was apologize for the conduct for his team.  He did not; silence gives consent.


Specifically, Danailov's outrageous claims would not be considered Topalov's views under my assumption. Nothing I have read claims that Topalov (himself) claimed anything outrageous, only his manager.

SL


If I hire someone to represent me, and he makes statements which I do not repudiate, why should I not be assumed to endorse them?

I understand that you can make some claim that Topalov is not responsible for the actions of his team, I simply disagree.  To accept your point of view would require me to believe that Topalov is being coerced in some fashion to accept Danailov as manager, and is unable to repudiate or control him because of some large conspiracy which surrounds him.

This seems to be about as likely as there being a computer chip implanted in Topalov's brain.

As far as Topalov being the "boss" I ask only this: what could conceivably happen if, in the next press conference, Topalov makes strong a strong statement apologizing for the actions of Danailov, and urging the press to ignore the rest of his misguided rants.  Is Danailov going to fire Topalov?  Bulgaria going to prevent him from travelling outside of the country to play chess?

To accept your point of view seems to require rather strong hypothesis for which I have no evidence.  It is more likely that Topalov's relationship to Danailov is like a client to a bulldog lawyer: he is vaguely embarrassed by what is done in his name, but sees the results and so stays silent.

There is no honor in that.
  
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StuntLinguist
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #60 - 10/08/06 at 06:10:17
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/07/06 at 17:03:50:
Keano, I refer you to articles 12.1 and 12.6 of the Laws of Chess

Article 12.1 forbids a player to do anything which would bring the game into disrepute. 

Article 12.6 forbids a player to do anything which would distract an opponent. Nothing restricting that to actions during the game.

It is abundantly clear that Topalov is in breach of article 12.1. I look forward to hearing the sanction that Mr Gijssen decides to impose.

In any case, you say in defence of Topalov that he was not cheating, merely acting unethically. I do not recognise the difference.


Article 12: The conduct of the players

Topalov (himself) has done nothing. Danailov is not bound by this clause for obvious reasons. He could claim he invented the question mark for all we care and still nobody would be in violation.   

SL
  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #59 - 10/08/06 at 05:27:13
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Scholar wrote on 10/08/06 at 04:24:36:
StuntLinguist wrote on 10/07/06 at 23:32:16:
Why are we so convinced that Topalov is the boss of his team? It's difficult to my western way of thinking to believe otherwise, but Bulgaria is slightly different than Canada Smiley From what I've seen posted and reported, this is simply the current assumption. I'll claim that it's equally likely that the Bulgarian government or Topalov's sponsors are the true bosses of the team and of Danailov.

SL


Would this make the conduct any more likely, or Topalov's behavior better?  I read the comment (maybe by Mark Crowther?) that all Topalov had to do was apologize for the conduct for his team.  He did not; silence gives consent.


Specifically, Danailov's outrageous claims would not be considered Topalov's views under my assumption. Nothing I have read claims that Topalov (himself) claimed anything outrageous, only his manager.

SL
  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #58 - 10/08/06 at 04:24:36
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StuntLinguist wrote on 10/07/06 at 23:32:16:
Why are we so convinced that Topalov is the boss of his team? It's difficult to my western way of thinking to believe otherwise, but Bulgaria is slightly different than Canada Smiley From what I've seen posted and reported, this is simply the current assumption. I'll claim that it's equally likely that the Bulgarian government or Topalov's sponsors are the true bosses of the team and of Danailov.

SL


Would this make the conduct any more likely, or Topalov's behavior better?  I read the comment (maybe by Mark Crowther?) that all Topalov had to do was apologize for the conduct for his team.  He did not; silence gives consent.
  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #57 - 10/07/06 at 23:32:16
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Why are we so convinced that Topalov is the boss of his team? It's difficult to my western way of thinking to believe otherwise, but Bulgaria is slightly different than Canada Smiley From what I've seen posted and reported, this is simply the current assumption. I'll claim that it's equally likely that the Bulgarian government or Topalov's sponsors are the true bosses of the team and of Danailov.

SL
  
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Re: Fritz9 and Topalov
Reply #56 - 10/07/06 at 22:26:01
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Keano wrote on 10/07/06 at 20:32:34:
As  for Grandmasters saying they would have walked out - easy to say but if their match fee and World title depended on it I think you would find they make a different decision!

You have a valid point.  No doubt Kramnik's decision to continue the match was influenced by the match paycheck.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
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