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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Strongest World Champ- pre Fischer (Read 5470 times)
MNb
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Re: Strongest World Champ- pre Fischer
Reply #12 - 11/28/06 at 02:17:10
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Botvinnik-Capablanca 0-1, Moscow 1936. That's why S_F mentions the period 1938-1963.
Fine had 2/3 against Botvinnik: two draws, one win .... in Amsterdam 1938.  Wink
  

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Willempie
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Re: Strongest World Champ- pre Fischer
Reply #11 - 11/27/06 at 08:21:51
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/25/06 at 04:51:12:
I pick Botvinnik because he understood chess at a much higher level than Capablanca. If you don't believe me, see the AVRO game against Capa.  Botvinnik played to Capa's strength and beat him soundly.  Yes, Capa was past his prime, but Botvinnik wasn't yet at his.

Who won the AVRO tournament? It wasnt Botwinnik Wink
And iirc in 1936 Capa beat Botwinnik.
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The "Botvinnik Rule" helped Botvinnik after he became World Champion.  Botvinnik defeated Smyslov, Bronstein, Tal, Keres, Alekhin, Capablanca, Spassky, Euwe, and just about anyone else you would care to name from 1938-1963.  Whoever was World Champion during those crucial twenty-five years, when chess was changing as much as it did, has to be considered the greatest of that era.

Most of the players you mention also returned the favour. Incidentally I just checked his record against Euwe and it is equal, with all Botters wins in the disastrous (for Euwe) 1948 tournament. Incidentally the lowest score against Euwe in that tournament.

Btw I only know of one Spassky loss in 1966.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Strongest World Champ- pre Fischer
Reply #10 - 11/25/06 at 05:04:40
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PS: Petrosian also deserves mention, as Andrew Brett has already done.  I once had an unusual but seriously flawed mechanism for figuring out who was the best World Champion.  I wouldn't consider anyone who had not successfully defended his title at least once.  That knocked Capa, Euwe, Smyslov, Tal, Spassky and Fischer out.  Petrosian stays in, and since he too was playing in the Silver Age* of Chess (the 1950s-1972), deserves serious consideration.   

Petrosian's style was almost impossible to copy, but so was Lasker's.  Then again, every World Champion has had a style that couldn't be copied.  Petrosian loses style points for agreeing to draws far too often.  He gains some back because he didn't lose many games to the very best players, but I place him behind Botvinnik, Lasker, Alekhin, Steinitz and Capablanca.

* The Golden Age of Chess probably spans Kasparov's career.  I don't know if we're still in it or not, but I have a feeling that Topalov's bathroom complaint will signal the beginning of the end.   

Toppy's complaint may have been ridiculous, but it marks the first time in the history of the World Championship that a game was decided by the threat of a computer.   The petty act of a desperate challenger may have signalled the end of the greatest period of artistic and competitive growth in chess history.  From here on out, it may be the Age of Computers.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Strongest World Champ- pre Fischer
Reply #9 - 11/25/06 at 04:51:12
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Uggh.

Let's see who can name the most obscure great player.

Well, I lose.

I pick Botvinnik because he understood chess at a much higher level than Capablanca. If you don't believe me, see the AVRO game against Capa.  Botvinnik played to Capa's strength and beat him soundly.  Yes, Capa was past his prime, but Botvinnik wasn't yet at his.

The "Botvinnik Rule" helped Botvinnik after he became World Champion.  Botvinnik defeated Smyslov, Bronstein, Tal, Keres, Alekhin, Capablanca, Spassky, Euwe, and just about anyone else you would care to name from 1938-1963.  Whoever was World Champion during those crucial twenty-five years, when chess was changing as much as it did, has to be considered the greatest of that era.
  
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Re: Strongest World Champ- pre Fischer
Reply #8 - 11/15/06 at 10:40:45
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My great predecessor – Lucena.  Grin
  

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Re: Strongest World Champ- pre Fischer
Reply #7 - 11/14/06 at 20:38:07
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As I agree with Keano on comparing WCh's of different era's, my vote goes to Ruy Lopez.
  

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Re: Strongest World Champ- pre Fischer
Reply #6 - 11/14/06 at 17:08:02
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woofwoof wrote on 11/14/06 at 16:02:59:

As to main topic, I would go for Steinitz (or maybe even Morphy). He didnt dodge the strongest players of his generation. Lasker's reign was longest in history, but he clearly dodged some of the strongest players of his time. eg Capa 10 yrs earlier, a younger Tarrasch.


Completely agree! Lasker is a legend, but nevertheless "a dodger". 
  
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Re: Strongest World Champ- pre Fischer
Reply #5 - 11/14/06 at 16:59:13
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Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Keano
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Re: Strongest World Champ- pre Fischer
Reply #4 - 11/14/06 at 16:26:28
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Yes Morphy another great also.

Lasker is one of my favourites but I happen to think he is not even close to Capa in the all-time scheme of things - Lasker was clever and made sure not to play Rubinstein at his peak, and to arrange good conditions and opponents for himself in matches (even then he was somewhat blessed to hang onto the title so long). Capa on the other hand lost unexpectedly to alekhine when he was close to his best having recently convincingly won a tournament with all the worlds best in it. If we read Botvinniks impressions it is clear Capablanca was shocked to lose to Alekhine, but what is even more shocking is he never got a rematch.

In the end it is impossible to compare across generations - the top modern players like Leko, Anand, etc. all agree on this. It makes for good chat and arguments on forums though  Wink

  
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Re: Strongest World Champ- pre Fischer
Reply #3 - 11/14/06 at 16:02:59
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Quote:
. On the most natural talent I think Karpov is who I would go for or maybe Reshevesky. 


Not Karpov. Most naturally talented are Capa & Morphy. I suppose Reshevsky too can be considered as well in this category. But both Capa & reshevsky never really booked up.

As to main topic, I would go for Steinitz (or maybe even Morphy). He didnt dodge the strongest players of his generation. Lasker's reign was longest in history, but he clearly dodged some of the strongest players of his time. eg Capa 10 yrs earlier, a younger Tarrasch.

The thing abt Bots was that he always had tthe Botvinnik Rule to help him get a 2nd chance to regain his crown immediately. It is arguable if he could survive the interzonals & candidates  before getting to the WCh stage. Deposed WChamps after Bots retired had to go thro the whole qualifying procedure before getting a shot at the crown again. But it has to be admitted however that Bots was a very formidable match player. 

  

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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: Strongest World Champ- pre Fischer
Reply #2 - 11/14/06 at 15:31:28
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Well keano thanks for putting me in my place ! I personally think Capa is overated and that Lasker was stronger than him (and yes I know about their W Ch match). A lot of Capa's fame is due to the 9 year undefeated streak but he only played 60 odd games. On the most natural talent I think Karpov is who I would go for or maybe Reshevesky. 

I don't agree with your comment on it being almost impossible to compare . In particular the Botvinnink to Fischer era continously had several W Champs who played each other for 20 years or so.

Anyway thanks for the post.

Andrew
  
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Keano
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Re: Strongest World Champ- pre Fischer
Reply #1 - 11/14/06 at 14:58:34
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Quote:
It seems obvious that Kasparov Karpov and Fischer are probably the 3 strongest players in history


I think this is a big assumption - I previously was convinced Kasparov was the best player of all-time, maybe because he is my generation and the games made such an impression. After more study and reflection I changed my mind and felt Fischer was the all-time great. Now I have had more time to study the classics I am beginning to think that Capablanca may have been certainly our greatest talent, although he was notoriously lazy and arrogant which meant he didnt reach his full potential. There is also a case for going further back even to Steinitz.... in short every generation is different and it is almost impossible to compare, which is why I am taking you up on this satement and feel it is off the mark.
  
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ANDREW BRETT
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Strongest World Champ- pre Fischer
11/14/06 at 08:22:39
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Thought I'd sound you out as to who we think was the best world champ pre Fischer days. It seems obvious that Kasparov Karpov and Fischer are probably the 3 strongest players in history but who do we think was the strongest before this era 

I look forward to hearing your views ! My own preference is for Petrosian but I doubt if that will be a popular choice.

Andrew
  
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