Normal Topic Anti Sveshnikov: 3Nc3 (Read 5594 times)
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Anti Sveshnikov: 3Nc3
Reply #6 - 11/23/06 at 02:05:25
Post Tools
James_Ells wrote on 11/22/06 at 18:34:50:
To MNb:  Vs. the accerelated dragon I’ve always adopted this move order avoiding the Maroczy – I’m not a class player like Ljubojevic – because in my humble opinion I get more attacking chances than using the Bind.
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 with a good game. Maybe we can discuss it in the ‘Dragon’ section…if you want to. It would be nice.
Meanwhile….I’m going to sue MNb. Grin  Grin  Grin  Cool
Thanks in advance and good chess!
J.E.


6...Nf6 with a good game indeed - for Black.  Cheesy
It is a good idea to discuss this in the Dragon section indeed. The jury, consisting of all Dragon experts of this site, is impatiently waiting.
As Black has a wide choice, I will mention the two best options. 7.Bc4 (so no Regular Dragon 9.o-o-o) o-o 8.Bb3
A) 8...a5 9.f3 d5 10.Bxd5 Nxd5 11.exd5 Nb4
B) 8...d6 9.f3 Bd7 and because of the early move Bb3 Black has a wider choice.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
James_Ells
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 32
Joined: 03/28/04
Gender: Male
Re: Anti Sveshnikov: 3Nc3
Reply #5 - 11/22/06 at 18:34:50
Post Tools
Many, many, many thanks to everyone for the kind and useful replyes!
I’ll try to answer in order: 
To MNb:  Vs. the accerelated dragon I’ve always adopted this move order avoiding the Maroczy – I’m not a class player like Ljubojevic – because in my humble opinion I get more attacking chances than using the Bind.
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 with a good game. Maybe we can discuss it in the ‘Dragon’ section…if you want to. It would be nice.
To Inn2: Thanks for the info. I’m not claiming that white has a substantial advantage, but the resulting positions are more complex and trickier (for example black can’t play 5..Nf6 for 6.Bc4! with a good game. See ‘De la Villa -  Ponomariov, Guardamar 1997'
To Stormcrow: You are right. As I told before, I was happy with the Aagaard’s treatment of the Nimzowitsch, so I didn’t care to traspose into the Sves…until nowadays. What do you think of Nunn’s suggestion of meeting 4...Ng4 with 5.Qe2 d6! (critical I think) 6.exd6 Qd6 7.d4!? unclear?
I was completely unaware of 6.Nde2, thanks! I’ve just found a small footnote in the ECO, but I really don’t know how much is it worth: 6.Nde2 Bc5 7.Ng3 d6 8.Be2 (too tame?) Be6 9.00 a6 judged as unclear. What about start a new topic?
To Willempie: Thank you very much indeed for the game! It’s the kind of stuff I like to play (not well like Ponomariov of course). I’ll will dig into it and I’ll be back with some comments. Meanwhile….I’m going to sue MNb. Grin  Grin  Grin  Cool
Thanks in advance and good chess!
J.E.

PS Someone could tell me if there is another thread on the move order choosen by Ponomariov, please?


  

Stat rosa pristine nomine, nomina nuda tenemus.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Anti Sveshnikov: 3Nc3
Reply #4 - 11/21/06 at 08:19:28
Post Tools
James_Ells wrote on 11/20/06 at 22:23:04:
The only line that leaves me a bit concerned is 3Nc3 d6. I've been searching in books and in ECO but I'm not sure if Black is forced to transpose in the Classical (after 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nd4) or if he can play e5 anyway reaching the Sveshnikov.
Someone can help me to get the 'variation tree' in order?
Naturally opinions and suggestions on the variations I gave above would be greatly appreciated. 
Thanks a lot and...good chess!
J.E.

PS I'm a lawyer (I've noticed there are many in this Forum), so if someone will state that Black is better in the lines I've mentioned...he will be immediately sued  Grin  Grin

Even though you're a lawyer, this game may give you some ideas. I think this is what you are afraid of as 5..Nf6 would transpose to the classical.

[Event "Governor's Cup"]
[Site "Kramatorsk"]
[Date "2001.10.02"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Ponomariov,Ruslan"]
[Black "Moiseenko,Alexander"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B54"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 d6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 e5 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bc4 Nf6 8.Bg5 Be7 9.Qd3 0-0 10.0-0-0 Be6 11.Bxf6 gxf6 12.f4 Kh8 13.Rhf1 Rb8 14.f5 Bxc4 15.Qxc4 Qb6 16.b3 a5 17.Rf3 Rbc8 18.Na4 Qb4 19.Qxb4 axb4 20.Nb6 Rc7 21.c3 Rg8 22.Rg3 Rxg3 23.hxg3 bxc3 24.Rd3 Rb7 25.Nc8 Bf8 26.Rxc3 d5 27.Rxc6 dxe4 28.Nb6 Kg7 29.Nd5 Kh6 30.Nxf6 Ba3+ 31.Kd2 Kg5 32.Nxe4+ Kxf5 33.Rc4 Be7 34.g4+ Ke6 35.Kc2 Rb8 36.a4 Bb4 37.Kd3 Rd8+ 38.Ke3 Rb8 39.Kd3 Rd8+ 40.Kc2 Rb8 41.Nc5+ Bxc5 42.Rxc5 Rg8 43.Rc4 h5 44.gxh5 Rxg2+ 45.Kc3 Rh2 46.a5 Rxh5 47.a6 Rh8 48.b4 Ra8 49.b5 f5 50.b6 Rxa6 51.b7  1-0
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
J-dog
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 283
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Joined: 11/15/05
Gender: Male
Re: Anti Sveshnikov: 3Nc3
Reply #3 - 11/21/06 at 05:05:08
Post Tools

After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 I'm not sure what you are referring to in Experts vs. the Sicilian. After 4.d4 black can just play 4...cd4 (instead of 4...d5!? as given in the Nimzo chapter of Experts) leading to the Svesh.  If 4.Bb5 you have the Rossolimo which you were trying to avoid.  If 4.e5 then 4...Ng4 scores well for Black.

On a side note, the variation 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cd4 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Nde2!? as given in the recent Dangerous Weapons: The Sicilian looks like a decent sideline that can be really sharp and sometimes reminiscent of the Open Games, especially when black plays 6...Bc5.   

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1504
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: Anti Sveshnikov: 3Nc3
Reply #2 - 11/21/06 at 02:06:35
Post Tools
You mean 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 g6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4, that avoids the Maroczy and gets a decent  accelerated dragon, already proven beyond reasonable doubt in practice, think this is how Magnus Carlsen meets 3. Nc3 btw. Morozevich plays 4. Bb5, a type of Rossolimo, there was a survey on this some time ago in NICyb.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Anti Sveshnikov: 3Nc3
Reply #1 - 11/21/06 at 01:17:56
Post Tools
OK, sue me.  1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 =/=+ as this is an improved version of the Dragon.
See you in court.  Grin
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
James_Ells
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 32
Joined: 03/28/04
Gender: Male
Anti Sveshnikov: 3Nc3
11/20/06 at 22:23:04
Post Tools
Hi everybody, I play the open sicilian as white, so I'm not scared to run into the main lines but I want to change my way to meet the Sveshnikov. I apologize in advance to the moderator if this topic has to be moved to the Open Sicilians Section. Anyway. I tried to play the Bb5 system but I didn't like the resulting position...I want a more sharp and unbalanced struggle, so I decided to give 3.Nc3 a chance. I've noticed that 3..e5 seems to be the mandatory reply, and searching into this forum I found some useful hints for the transpositional lines to the main lines of the open sicilian.
A brief recap: 3.Nc3 e5 4.Bc4 and I'm very happy to play the attack with Ng5 and f4 (even if I don't wish to claim an advantage for white)
3.Nc3 g6 4.h4 with a sharp struggle ahead or 4.d4 with a transposition into the Dragon
3.Nc3 Nf6 and I like the suggestions of Expert vs the Sicilian
3.Nc3 e6 and after a 4.d4 we are in B45 where white can avoid the Sveshnikov playing the Kuznecov variation. I think it' s very interesting.
3Nc3 a6 and after the natural d4 we are again on familiar paths. If black try to follow some unorthodox ways I think that Illescas - Bellon, Sevilla 1992 is a good advice for white.
So far so good...or I'm missing something? 
The only line that leaves me a bit concerned is 3Nc3 d6. I've been searching in books and in ECO but I'm not sure if Black is forced to transpose in the Classical (after 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nd4) or if he can play e5 anyway reaching the Sveshnikov.
Someone can help me to get the 'variation tree' in order?
Naturally opinions and suggestions on the variations I gave above would be greatly appreciated. 
Thanks a lot and...good chess!
J.E.

PS I'm a lawyer (I've noticed there are many in this Forum), so if someone will state that Black is better in the lines I've mentioned...he will be immediately sued  Grin  Grin
  

Stat rosa pristine nomine, nomina nuda tenemus.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo