(UTC)
Latest Updates:
(Moderators: Jupp53, proustiskeen)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!? (Read 24533 times)
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!?
Reply #34 - 02/06/07 at 13:50:31
Post Tools
Quote:
Another example regarding the transposition possibilities with this Bb4!? move order:

I was looking into 4.Nf3 and had planned to follow up with 5.cxd5 leaving out the Vienna....
However now it seams black can play 4..dxc4!? which leads to the Noteboom!  (5.e3 b5 6.a4 c6 7.Bd2 a5)
As white seams to avoid the whole noteboom these days - maybe this is THE moveorder if that is what black really wants to play  Huh

Have to say I am impressed by this 3..Bb4 move and wonders why it is so seldomly played....


I am sure that it would be played much more often if it were always met by 4. Nf3.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Viking
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 673
Location: Norway
Joined: 10/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!?
Reply #33 - 02/03/07 at 09:01:25
Post Tools
Another example regarding the transposition possibilities with this Bb4!? move order:

I was looking into 4.Nf3 and had planned to follow up with 5.cxd5 leaving out the Vienna....
However now it seams black can play 4..dxc4!? which leads to the Noteboom!  (5.e3 b5 6.a4 c6 7.Bd2 a5)
As white seams to avoid the whole noteboom these days - maybe this is THE moveorder if that is what black really wants to play  Huh

Have to say I am impressed by this 3..Bb4 move and wonders why it is so seldomly played....
« Last Edit: 02/03/07 at 12:49:26 by Viking »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!?
Reply #32 - 02/02/07 at 13:26:55
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 02/02/07 at 13:21:53:

Yuri Yakovich?  That's the guy who wrote the book on 4. f3, and who also plays the Saemisch with fair frequency.  Definitely not the right opponent to try 3...Bb4 out on!

at least he wasnt able to flick in f3 somewhere Grin
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!?
Reply #31 - 02/02/07 at 13:21:53
Post Tools
Willempie wrote on 02/02/07 at 07:51:44:

[White "Yakovich,Yuri"]
[Black "Berkovich,Mark A"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D31"]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 dxc4 6.e4 b5 7.a4 c6 8.Qg4 Nf6 
9.Qxg7 Rg8 10.Qh6 Rg6 11.Qe3 Nbd7 12.Ne2 Qa5 13.Ba3 Qxa4 14.Nf4 Rg8 15.Be2 b4 16.cxb4 Nb6 17.0-0 Qb5 18.Bb2 Na4 19.Rfb1 Nxb2 20.Rxb2 e5 21.Ra5 exf4 22.Qxf4 Qb6 23.Qxf6 Be6 24.Bh5 Kf8 25.Rf5 c5 26.Bxf7  1-0


Yuri Yakovich?  That's the guy who wrote the book on 4. f3, and who also plays the Saemisch with fair frequency.  Definitely not the right opponent to try 3...Bb4 out on!
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Viking
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 673
Location: Norway
Joined: 10/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!?
Reply #30 - 02/02/07 at 10:26:28
Post Tools
i)
after 4.a3 Bxc3 5.bxc3 dxc4 I guess Qa4 winning the pawn back also could be played. White has a solid center and the bishop pair.

ii)
The Lautier plan with c5 and Ne7 - waiting for cxd5 and Bd3 - seams very logical and strong to me... 
But as Markovich said white may play Nge2-g3 before exchanging on d5
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!?
Reply #29 - 02/02/07 at 07:51:44
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 02/01/07 at 15:43:45:
Willempie wrote on 02/01/07 at 14:51:00:
Markovich wrote on 02/01/07 at 13:57:51:
I would much rather be White after 4. e3 Nf6  5. a3 Be7, but I agree that since ...d5 is in, the withdrawal of the bishop is better than the exchange on c3.  I wonder if White can avoid this by playing 4. a3 immediately.

I was wondering the same thing. 4.a3 Bxc3 (Be7 makes less sense now)5.bxc3 and now Nf6 would make it a nimzo-samisch. However 5..c5 6.e3 Ne7 (Nc6?!) looks decent.


I don't think these alternative knight developments on move 5 are a very big problem for White.  Doesn't he just play cxd5 and then Bd3?  (Or for that matter, Bd3 and then cxd5?)  Particularly the early ...Nc6 looks weak to me, blocking the c-pawn.  On e7 the other knight avoids being pinned, but it leaves the kingside more exposed.  Who am I to say whether this is good or bad?!  But I suspect, at least not good.

Ah, I just modified this because I saw that a possible point of 5...Ne7 is to enforce ...Bf5.  But White could, it would seem, defer cxd5 until after Bd3, and Ne2-g3.

Seems you are in decent company with such an idea. However Lautier seems to equalise easily:
[Event "Linares 12th"]
[Site "Linares"]
[Date "1994.02.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Shirov,Alexei"]
[Black "Lautier,Joel"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D31"]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 c5 6.e3 Ne7 7.Bd3 Qc7 8.cxd5 exd5 9.Ne2 Bf5 10.Bxf5 Nxf5 11.0-0 0-0 12.Nf4 Ne7 13.c4 dxc4 14.d5 Ng6 15.Nh5 Qe5 16.Rb1 Rd8 17.Qg4 Nd7 18.e4 b6 19.Bb2 c3 20.Ba1 c4 21.Qf3 f6 22.Bxc3 Qe7 23.Qg4 Nde5 24.Qg3 Nd3 25.f4 Kh8 26.Kh1 Rd7 27.e5 fxe5 28.fxe5 Rxd5 29.e6 Rxh5 30.Qf3 Re8 31.Qxh5 Qxe6 32.Qf3 Kg8 33.Qb7 Qe7 34.Qc6 Nge5 35.Qe4 h6 36.a4 Qc5 37.Qf5 a6 38.h3 Qc6 39.Bd4 b5 40.axb5 axb5 41.Ra1 Qd5 42.Bxe5 Rxe5 43.Qc8+ Kh7 44.Rf8 Nc5 45.Rh8+ Kg6 46.Rd8 Qe6 47.Qb8 Qf6 48.Rf8 Qe7 49.Rf3 Kh7 50.Kh2 Nd7 51.Qb7 Nf6 52.Qxe7 Rxe7 53.Rf5 b4 54.Rf4 Ne4 55.Ra4 g5 56.Rf8 Rb7 57.Rc8 Nd2 58.Raa8 b3 59.Rh8+ Kg6 60.Ra6+ Kf5 61.Re8 h5 0-1

And here the same idea, but executed slightly differently:
[Event "Cap d'Agde KO"]
[Site "Cap d'Agde"]
[Date "2000.11.01"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Gurevich,Mikhail"]
[Black "Serper,Grigory"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "D31"]
1.c4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 c5 6.e3 Ne7 7.cxd5 exd5 8.Bd3 0-0 9.Ne2 Bf5 10.0-0 Bxd3 11.Qxd3 c4 12.Qc2 Nbc6 13.a4 Qd7 14.Ba3 Rfe8 15.Ng3 Na5 16.Rae1 Nb3 17.e4 dxe4 18.Nxe4 Nd5 19.Nd6 Rxe1 20.Rxe1 Qxa4 21.Qe4 Qc6 22.Qf3 Nf6 23.Qf4 Qa4 24.Bb4 b6 25.Nf5 h6 26.Qg3 g6 27.Nxh6+ Kg7 28.Nf5+ Kg8 29.Nh6+ Kg7 30.Nxf7 Nxd4 31.Qc7 Qc6 32.Qg3 Nf5 33.Qxg6+ Kxg6 34.Ne5+ Kg7 35.Nxc6 a5 36.Ba3 Rc8 37.Ne7 Nxe7 38.Rxe7+ Kg6 39.Re6 b5 40.Rb6 b4 41.cxb4 axb4 42.Bxb4 c3 43.Bxc3 Rxc3 44.g3 Kf5 45.Rb2 Ra3 46.Kg2 Rc3 47.h3 Ra3 48.g4+ Nxg4 49.hxg4+ Kxg4 50.Rb4+ Kf5 51.Rb8 Kg4 52.Rg8+ Kf4 53.Rh8 Kg4 54.f3+ Kf4 55.Rf8+ Kg5 56.Kg3 Rb3 57.Rg8+ Kf5 58.Rh8 Kg5 59.Rf8 Ra3 60.Rb8 Ra5 61.Rh8 Ra3 62.Rg8+ Kf5 63.Rg4 Rb3 64.Rf4+ Kg5 65.Ra4 Rb5 66.Rg4+ Kf5 67.Rh4 Rb3 68.Rh5+ Kg6 69.Re5 Rb4 70.Rd5 Ra4 71.Rd8 Kg5 72.Rg8+ Kf5 73.Rh8 Kg5 74.f4+ Kf5 75.Rh5+ Kg6 76.Rg5+ Kf6 77.Kg4 Ra1 78.Rb5  1/2

Dont know what to think about the Nc6 move yet. I just saw that Bagirov has played this twice recently.
Quote:

However, could 4. a3 Bxc3 5. bxc3 dxc4 be a problem?  Somehow it doesn't look like very good chess on Black's part, but then, they play ...dxc4 and ...b5 with surprising impunity these days.

Initially thought that that would be good for black, but then I saw this game. I am usually not very impressed with Qg4xg7 sorties, but this looks very dangerous.
[Event "Donner mem op"]
[Site "Amsterdam"]
[Date "1995.08.??"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Yakovich,Yuri"]
[Black "Berkovich,Mark A"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D31"]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 dxc4 6.e4 b5 7.a4 c6 8.Qg4 Nf6 
9.Qxg7 Rg8 10.Qh6 Rg6 11.Qe3 Nbd7 12.Ne2 Qa5 13.Ba3 Qxa4 14.Nf4 Rg8 15.Be2 b4 16.cxb4 Nb6 17.0-0 Qb5 18.Bb2 Na4 19.Rfb1 Nxb2 20.Rxb2 e5 21.Ra5 exf4 22.Qxf4 Qb6 23.Qxf6 Be6 24.Bh5 Kf8 25.Rf5 c5 26.Bxf7  1-0
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!?
Reply #28 - 02/01/07 at 22:16:18
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 02/01/07 at 20:24:03:
Thanks very much for that info.

I like Gelfand's approach in the second game that you cited.  It's hard for me to believe in Black's equality in this line.  I would probably have to agree that it's somewhat better than submitting to the Botvinnik Variation, however.  4. a3 isn't played that much these days at any level, but these ...d5, ...Qxd5 ideas are quite unusual.  Much more usual, as you will perhaps know, is ...c5, ...Nc6, ...b6, ...0-0, with play against White's weak c-pawn and usually ...Ne8 if White gets in e4.  If I were a Nimzo player, I don't think that I would go near the early ...d5 in reply to White's early e3, in spite of ECO's favorable judgements about it.  But perhaps I'm wrong.

At any rate, it appears that I exaggerated when I said Black has "no good opportunity" for a piece recapture on d5.  As for the orginal post, I continue to advise either 4. e3, 5. a3, or 4. a3 immediately.


I must "admit" that I agree with you, in the sense that I can't shake the feeling that I would rather be White.  It's unclear to me why White's bishop pair and central pawns shouldn't be worth something (thinking of the Gelfand-type position).   
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!?
Reply #27 - 02/01/07 at 20:24:03
Post Tools
Thanks very much for that info.

I like Gelfand's approach in the second game that you cited.  It's hard for me to believe in Black's equality in this line.  I would probably have to agree that it's somewhat better than submitting to the Botvinnik Variation, however.  4. a3 isn't played that much these days at any level, but these ...d5, ...Qxd5 ideas are quite unusual.  Much more usual, as you will perhaps know, is ...c5, ...Nc6, ...b6, ...0-0, with play against White's weak c-pawn and usually ...Ne8 if White gets in e4.  If I were a Nimzo player, I don't think that I would go near the early ...d5 in reply to White's early e3, in spite of ECO's favorable judgements about it.  But perhaps I'm wrong.

At any rate, it appears that I exaggerated when I said Black has "no good opportunity" for a piece recapture on d5.  As for the orginal post, I continue to advise either 4. e3, 5. a3, or 4. a3 immediately.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!?
Reply #26 - 02/01/07 at 19:35:21
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 02/01/07 at 18:52:14:
kylemeister wrote on 02/01/07 at 16:50:22:
I notice that NCO likes White after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 0-0 5. Bd3 d5 6. a3 Bxc3+ 7. bc c5 8. cd Qxd5 9. Qf3 (one game with this move is Bogoljubov-Reshevsky, Nottingham '36), but on 9...cd 10. Qxd5 it only mentions ...ed, while ECO thinks 10...Nxd5 is stronger.


Just looking at this in my head, I wonder why White should be in a hurry to exchange queens.  Is anything wrong with 9. Nf3?  What is Black doing while White plays, 0-0, Re1, and e4?  Or for that matter, 0-0, e4 without first Re1?  If 9. Nf3 cxd4, White will recapture with his e-pawn, with the idea c4 and Bb2, eh?  And 9. Nf3 Nc6  10. e4 Nxe4  11. c4 is good for White, isn't it?  I must be embarassing myself with bad blindfold analysis, I just don't see how.  


Well, blindfold analysis is about the only kind I do when posting on this board.  Of course here I have been basically reporting rather than thinking   Smiley

On 9. Nf3 ECO offers 9...b6, then either 10. c4 or 10. Qe2 (versus ...Ba6, I presume).  It gives the first as dubious but leading to equality, and the second as leading to unclarity (hmm).  The games cited are these:

[Event "Ptuj zt"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1995.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Kortchnoi, Viktor"]
[Black "Luther, Thomas"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "QO 16.11"]
[ECO "D31"]
[PlyCount "79"]

1. c4 e6 2. Nc3 d5 3. d4 Bb4 4. a3 Bxc3  5. bxc3 c5 6. e3 Nf6 7. cxd5 Qxd5 8. Nf3 
O-O 9. Bd3 b6 10. c4 Qh5 11. O-O Bb7 12. Be2 Nbd7 13. Ne5 Qg5 14. Bf3 Bxf3 15. Nxf3 
Qf5 16. Qe2 Rac8 17. Bb2 cxd4 18. Nxd4 Qc5 19. Rac1 e5 20. Nf5 e4 21. Ng3 Rfe8 22. 
Bd4 Qg5 23. f3 Nc5 24. Rcd1 exf3 25. Qxf3 Re6 26. Nf5 Nce4 27. h4 Qg6 28. Bxf6 Qxf6 
29. Qg4 Rce8 30. Nd6 Rxd6 31. Rxf6 Nxf6 32. Qf3 Rxd1  33. Qxd1 h5 34. Qd6 Ng4 35. 
g3 g6 36. Qd7 Rxe3 37. Qxa7 Rxg3  38. Kf1 Rb3 39. Ke2 Kg7 40. c5 1-0


[Event "Tilburg m"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1992.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Gelfand, Boris"]
[Black "Rozentalis, Eduardas"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "NI 8.3"]
[ECO "E47"]
[PlyCount "81"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 O-O 5. Bd3 c5 6. a3 Bxc3  7. bxc3 d5 8. cxd5 Qxd5 
9. Nf3 b6 10. Qe2 cxd4 11. cxd4 Bb7 12. O-O Nbd7 13. Bb2 Rac8 14. Rfc1 h6 15. Bc4 
Qf5 16. a4 Rfd8 17. Bb5 Qd5 18. Ba3 Ne4 19. Be7 Re8 20. Bb4 a5 21. Be1 Red8 22. Bc4 
Qc6 23. Qb2 Ng5 24. Be2 Qe4 25. h4 Nh7 26. Rxc8 Rxc8 27. Rc1 Rxc1 28. Qxc1 Bc6 29. 
Qd1 Nhf6 30. Bf1 Qg4 31. Be2 Qe4 32. Bf1 g6 33. Nd2 Qxh4 34. f3 Qg5 35. Bf2 Qd5 36. 
Qc2 Bb7 37. Bb5 Qd6 38. e4 Qf4 39. e5 Nh5 40. Bxd7 Ng3 41. Bb5 1-0



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!?
Reply #25 - 02/01/07 at 18:52:14
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 02/01/07 at 16:50:22:
I notice that NCO likes White after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 0-0 5. Bd3 d5 6. a3 Bxc3+ 7. bc c5 8. cd Qxd5 9. Qf3 (one game with this move is Bogoljubov-Reshevsky, Nottingham '36), but on 9...cd 10. Qxd5 it only mentions ...ed, while ECO thinks 10...Nxd5 is stronger.


Just looking at this in my head, I wonder why White should be in a hurry to exchange queens.  Is anything wrong with 9. Nf3?  What is Black doing while White plays, 0-0, Re1, and e4?  Or for that matter, 0-0, e4 without first Re1?  If 9. Nf3 cxd4, White will recapture with his e-pawn, with the idea c4 and Bb2, eh?  And 9. Nf3 Nc6  10. e4 Nxe4  11. c4 is good for White, isn't it?  I must be embarassing myself with bad blindfold analysis, I just don't see how.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!?
Reply #24 - 02/01/07 at 16:50:22
Post Tools
I notice that NCO likes White after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 0-0 5. Bd3 d5 6. a3 Bxc3+ 7. bc c5 8. cd Qxd5 9. Qf3 (one game with this move is Bogoljubov-Reshevsky, Nottingham '36), but on 9...cd 10. Qxd5 it only mentions ...ed, while ECO thinks 10...Nxd5 is stronger.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!?
Reply #23 - 02/01/07 at 16:06:24
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 02/01/07 at 15:49:43:
Markovich wrote on 02/01/07 at 13:50:34:
kylemeister wrote on 01/31/07 at 20:47:29:
I think that that "early ...d5 is bad" view was the consensus a few decades ago but isn't really held to be true any more.  Though it seems that Black is generally advised to recapture on d5 with a piece (in at least some cases with the queen) ...

Kasparov did play the "delayed Saemisch" for a while in the '80s.  Raymond Keene recommended it in a d4 repertoire book back then; someone mentioned here recently that IM Shereshevsky did the same in his "The Soviet Chess Conveyor."


I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.  If the exchange on c3 has occurred and White has e3 in, ...d5 is a bad move, more or less.  Black generally has no good option to recapture on d5 with a piece.  For example 1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 e6  3. Nc3 Bb4  4. a3 Bxc3+  5. bxc3 c5  6. e3 d5?!  7. cxd5, or 6...Nc6  7. Bd3 d5?!  8. cxd5 or, as in an ongoing CC game of mine, 6...b6  7. Ne2! Bb7  8. Ng3 0-0  9. Bd3 (I would have welcomed 9...Bxg7) 9...d5?! 10. cxd5.  It continued 10...exd5  11. 0-0 Nc6  12. f3 Re8  13. Ra2 Rc8  14. Re2 g6!?  15. Bb2 and Black simply could not prevent e3-e4.  There are indeed many ways for Black to get ...d5 in against White's early e3, and essentially all of them are bad.  One initially has the impression that Black is doing well with his central pawn, e-file, and better development.  But often in fact, he is being crushed.

Now it is true that if White plays f3 before e3, most notably as in 4. f3 d5  5. a3 Bxc3  6. bxc3 c5, Black can play ...d5 and may (indeed must, if he wants to avoid the pawn-roller variation) recapture on d5 with a piece.  But that is nothing new; it was well known in the 1950s.  f3 is a very time-consuming move, and often after 4. a3 if White plays a careless f3, Black just blockades him to death. 


For what it's worth, ECO gives 7...Qxd5 "!" in your first line, and similarly after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 0-0 5. Bd3 d5 6. a3 Bxc3+ 7. bc c5 8. cd, as leading to an unclear or equal position.  I notice that there seems to be no mention of White playing f3 (as opposed to Nf3 or Qf3) after ...Qxd5 in such lines; offhand I wouldn't know what to make of that.

Also FWIW, ECO more or less agrees with Willempie regarding 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 d5 5. a3 Be7 (it thinks Black can equalise, sometimes in more than one way).

On a random note, "Markovich" happens to be the middle name of the late Russian-American IM Boris Kogan ...



Well, who am I to disagree with ECO, but these queen recaptures look pretty fishy to me (perhaps they are better than submitting to the pawn roller). White has the two bishops, no weaknesses, a pawn on c3 backing up his d-pawn, and Black is equal?  I'll look at it when I have my references (and a chessboard) handy, and come back with my further thoughts.   

But no, once Black captures on d5 with the Queen, I would certainly not advocate that White spend time on f3.  Offhand I would suppose that the knight belongs there.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!?
Reply #22 - 02/01/07 at 15:49:43
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 02/01/07 at 13:50:34:
kylemeister wrote on 01/31/07 at 20:47:29:
I think that that "early ...d5 is bad" view was the consensus a few decades ago but isn't really held to be true any more.  Though it seems that Black is generally advised to recapture on d5 with a piece (in at least some cases with the queen) ...

Kasparov did play the "delayed Saemisch" for a while in the '80s.  Raymond Keene recommended it in a d4 repertoire book back then; someone mentioned here recently that IM Shereshevsky did the same in his "The Soviet Chess Conveyor."


I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.  If the exchange on c3 has occurred and White has e3 in, ...d5 is a bad move, more or less.  Black generally has no good option to recapture on d5 with a piece.  For example 1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 e6  3. Nc3 Bb4  4. a3 Bxc3+  5. bxc3 c5  6. e3 d5?!  7. cxd5, or 6...Nc6  7. Bd3 d5?!  8. cxd5 or, as in an ongoing CC game of mine, 6...b6  7. Ne2! Bb7  8. Ng3 0-0  9. Bd3 (I would have welcomed 9...Bxg7) 9...d5?! 10. cxd5.  It continued 10...exd5  11. 0-0 Nc6  12. f3 Re8  13. Ra2 Rc8  14. Re2 g6!?  15. Bb2 and Black simply could not prevent e3-e4.  There are indeed many ways for Black to get ...d5 in against White's early e3, and essentially all of them are bad.  One initially has the impression that Black is doing well with his central pawn, e-file, and better development.  But often in fact, he is being crushed.

Now it is true that if White plays f3 before e3, most notably as in 4. f3 d5  5. a3 Bxc3  6. bxc3 c5, Black can play ...d5 and may (indeed must, if he wants to avoid the pawn-roller variation) recapture on d5 with a piece.  But that is nothing new; it was well known in the 1950s.  f3 is a very time-consuming move, and often after 4. a3 if White plays a careless f3, Black just blockades him to death.  


For what it's worth, ECO gives 7...Qxd5 "!" in your first line, and similarly after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 0-0 5. Bd3 d5 6. a3 Bxc3+ 7. bc c5 8. cd, as leading to an unclear or equal position.  I notice that there seems to be no mention of White playing f3 (as opposed to Nf3 or Qf3) after ...Qxd5 in such lines; offhand I wouldn't know what to make of that.

Also FWIW, ECO more or less agrees with Willempie regarding 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 d5 5. a3 Be7 (it thinks Black can equalise, sometimes in more than one way).

On a random note, "Markovich" happens to be the middle name of the late Russian-American IM Boris Kogan ...

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!?
Reply #21 - 02/01/07 at 15:43:45
Post Tools
Willempie wrote on 02/01/07 at 14:51:00:
Markovich wrote on 02/01/07 at 13:57:51:
I would much rather be White after 4. e3 Nf6  5. a3 Be7, but I agree that since ...d5 is in, the withdrawal of the bishop is better than the exchange on c3.  I wonder if White can avoid this by playing 4. a3 immediately.

I was wondering the same thing. 4.a3 Bxc3 (Be7 makes less sense now)5.bxc3 and now Nf6 would make it a nimzo-samisch. However 5..c5 6.e3 Ne7 (Nc6?!) looks decent.


I don't think these alternative knight developments on move 5 are a very big problem for White.  Doesn't he just play cxd5 and then Bd3?  (Or for that matter, Bd3 and then cxd5?)  Particularly the early ...Nc6 looks weak to me, blocking the c-pawn.  On e7 the other knight avoids being pinned, but it leaves the kingside more exposed.  Who am I to say whether this is good or bad?!  But I suspect, at least not good.

Ah, I just modified this because I saw that a possible point of 5...Ne7 is to enforce ...Bf5.  But White could, it would seem, defer cxd5 until after Bd3, and Ne2-g3.

However, could 4. a3 Bxc3 5. bxc3 dxc4 be a problem?  Somehow it doesn't look like very good chess on Black's part, but then, they play ...dxc4 and ...b5 with surprising impunity these days.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: QG 3.Nc3 Bb4!?
Reply #20 - 02/01/07 at 14:51:00
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 02/01/07 at 13:57:51:
I would much rather be White after 4. e3 Nf6  5. a3 Be7, but I agree that since ...d5 is in, the withdrawal of the bishop is better than the exchange on c3.  I wonder if White can avoid this by playing 4. a3 immediately.

I was wondering the same thing. 4.a3 Bxc3 (Be7 makes less sense now)5.bxc3 and now Nf6 would make it a nimzo-samisch. However 5..c5 6.e3 Ne7 (Nc6?!) looks decent.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2026. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge