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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Vancura position (Read 32245 times)
Willempie
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Re: Vancura position
Reply #20 - 02/14/07 at 10:04:56
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I have no modify button but the position i meant of course was 
White Kh2, Ra8. Black K anywhere, Ra1, pawn a2
I mixed up white and black while typing Roll Eyes
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Willempie
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Re: Vancura position
Reply #19 - 02/14/07 at 10:02:24
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IMJohnCox wrote on 02/13/07 at 18:45:22:
Something like that, yes. I suppose if I just bring the king to g3 I was concerned he would play ...Ke5...f5; I'd have to take, now my king can't approach his pawns and he can slowly bring the king to the queenside - if the king got to b4 while I was still passive I'd surely lose.

I don't know - I think if I had to panic intuitively again in this position I'd panic intuitively the same way (which did work in the game, at least), but I did mean to have a play with the position and see whether this was in fact either desirable or necessary, and I haven't got round to it.

Vancura isn't the f & h pawn ending, no. Don't know the Euwe book you mention but Keres is good on it too - know what you mean about Fritz, though! That's something else I always mean to do - train some of these classics against Fritz 10 and see how I go. Dreadfully, I imagine.

That may very well be, but my bet is that you had the following drawing position in mind:
White K anywhere, Ra1 pawn a2, Black Ra8, Kh2
So even if you panic you may remember these theoretical positions Wink
  

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chessy
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Re: Vancura position
Reply #18 - 02/14/07 at 09:55:27
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I believe each chessplayer would benefit much more to study such positions as the vencura and built up a solid endgame techic based on this, than to study openings. Even the position is seldom on the board it will occur often in our caluculation (ok dont play like this, this its a draw etc). 

However I must addmit I spend much more (plenty of) studytime in openings/middlegame and only few in endgames. The reason is simple--> to study openings/middlegame is much more fun. It is the creative part of the chessgame and that part i like most. studying endgame is much more serious. the diffrence between right and wrong is clearer and the consecquences are win or lose. in middlegames there is still lot of play in the position even I am better or worse the outcome of the game is still open. 

Allways when I again failed once more to convert a middlegame advantage in the endgame I think now chessy, stop studying openings and learn this endgames or you well never make progress. But then at home... well I am not a professional I just play chess for fun and so I am again on chesspublishing... Wink

And when I think about the opening lines I analysed but never had on the board.... Lips Sealed
well maybe with cox`s berlin book I will start to look at end games  Cheesy
  
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Klick
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Re: Vancura position
Reply #17 - 02/14/07 at 09:11:06
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I know what the Vancura-position is. It is featured in Seirawan's (introductory) book on the endgame, but I've never had it in a game.

Quote:
Is any of this stuff ever actually important? My impression is that few English IMs could manage this either as a matter of knowledge or indeed over the board at a seven-hour time limit (see Kazhgalayev-Hanley, Port Erin 2006).  GMs would vary.


This is actually nice to hear  Wink
  

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Stigma
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Re: Vancura position
Reply #16 - 02/14/07 at 00:18:32
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I could probably draw the Vancura position itself, thanks to John Emm's coverage in "Survival Guide to Rook Endings". But I'm not at all sure I would be able to correctly reach it, say with the stronger side's king moving up the board...
 
In practice the endame is a weak point in my play (2150-ish overall), even though I know more "technical" positions than many stronger players I know. I have come to think that studying strategic endings and thinking methods is much more important, since logically they arise more often, and I'm now spending my endgame time with Lars Bo Hansen (Secrets of Chess Endgame Strategy) which looks great so far.

Which is more important in practical play against not-always-perfect opposition: 
Being able to reach technical positions where you are the one with the winning chances most of the time, or being able to play those positions absolutely flawlessly?  Wink
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Vancura position
Reply #15 - 02/13/07 at 22:21:11
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Hmm. Maybe I'm just naturally bad at rook endings (actually this is true). I find it quite counterintuitive.

I guess everyone who wants to respond probably has, so I might post the position itself tomorrow in the hope of us learning something. Although I can't do that clever diagram lark.
  
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kevinludwig
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Re: Vancura position
Reply #14 - 02/13/07 at 21:09:18
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Ok...I just looked up the position with google, and that explains why I didn't recognize it. For that general class of R+p endings, I opted to study only the one or two exceptions where the stronger side could actually win. Then I ran on the assumption that for the most part, common sense would allow the weaker side to draw otherwise, assuming that the weaker side understood the basic principles of R+p.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Vancura position
Reply #13 - 02/13/07 at 19:09:46
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Had never heard about the Vancura position, but when I looked it up on the net I recognised it. (And found out Wikipedia has a good listing of these technical endings).

Btw, another endgame name I hadn't seen/heard before, was on a swedish site earlier today, mentioning Stemmas' mate, involving 2N vs a rookpawn...
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Vancura position
Reply #12 - 02/13/07 at 18:45:22
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Something like that, yes. I suppose if I just bring the king to g3 I was concerned he would play ...Ke5...f5; I'd have to take, now my king can't approach his pawns and he can slowly bring the king to the queenside - if the king got to b4 while I was still passive I'd surely lose.

I don't know - I think if I had to panic intuitively again in this position I'd panic intuitively the same way (which did work in the game, at least), but I did mean to have a play with the position and see whether this was in fact either desirable or necessary, and I haven't got round to it.

Vancura isn't the f & h pawn ending, no. Don't know the Euwe book you mention but Keres is good on it too - know what you mean about Fritz, though! That's something else I always mean to do - train some of these classics against Fritz 10 and see how I go. Dreadfully, I imagine.
  
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kevinludwig
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Re: Vancura position
Reply #11 - 02/13/07 at 18:30:16
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John, 

I like to think that I am relatively good at endgames, in particular rook and pawn endgames. But, uh...I haven't heard of that particular position. Maybe it's just that I haven't heard it by that name. If it's the K+R+f+h vs. R+K as someone else mentioned, then yes I've studied it, I know how I'm *supposed* to draw it, but if I remember right, it isn't quite as straight-forward as some authors would have you believe. For example, in a Euwe endgame book (that nobody seems to care for but I hold in high regard because it was how I learned rook endings), he has the position reduced to a set of rules essentially (if attacking king goes here then defending rook checks here, etc.), but when I tried it out agaist fritz, it wasn't so easy (Fritz doesn't play by those rules!).

As far as the Cox-Aagaard position goes, I guess black has some advantage due to a more active rook? And so your idea roughly was sac a pawn for rook activity (and it turns out that black's rook becomes less active in the process), i.e. 1. Rc2 Rxa4 2. Rc7 and now either 2. ...Rb4 3. Ra7 a4, when the black rook is awkwardly tied to the defense of the pawn, or 2. ...Ra3+ 3. Kf2 a4 4. Ra7 a3, when I think the white king can take cover on g3 and black will be unable to queen the pawn. Seems like a good strategy, because having an active rook is considered very important in rook endings, and your rook on a2 is looking pretty bad.

  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Vancura position
Reply #10 - 02/13/07 at 17:15:33
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Well in that case this endgame had already featured some truly embarrassingly bad play by White: the sort of thing that in a just world would have a player’s title revoked. Rc2 was played in time trouble and I’m not at all sure it was a good move. I always meant to analsyse this ending but could never bring myself to revisit it. Woofwoof’s Kf2 looks fairly sensible except for the psychological issues – I’m fairly sure my last move was the hugely inept Kf2-e3…..
  
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woofwoof
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Re: Vancura position
Reply #9 - 02/13/07 at 16:48:18
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"What to play as white" - Instictively id try Kf2......to swing the king to the other side of his pawns, threatens to pressure the black pawns & avoids those annoying checks, see. Black king cant penetrate as yet.

But then again, me endgame sucks.  Embarrassed
  

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Willempie
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Re: Vancura position
Reply #8 - 02/13/07 at 16:46:42
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IMJohnCox wrote on 02/13/07 at 16:36:56:
Gosh, that could almost be Cox-Aagaard, Port Erin 2005. Maybe it is?!

If so then I think I played Rc2, but I'm not boasting about it.

It is.  Grin
I was wondering if you would recognise it.
  

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IMJohnCox
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Re: Vancura position
Reply #7 - 02/13/07 at 16:36:56
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Gosh, that could almost be Cox-Aagaard, Port Erin 2005. Maybe it is?!

If so then I think I played Rc2, but I'm not boasting about it.
  
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Re: Vancura position
Reply #6 - 02/13/07 at 16:34:08
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I would rather say that many 'knowledge' endgames are rather common. Perhaps the positions aren't actually happening but that's because one of the players steers away from them or draw/resign happen before they actually appear.

I know very few positions by name. Don't think I've heard of the Vancura.
  

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