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Black's sixth moves, why e5? (Read 26172 times)

Marc Narciso YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 20 Location: Barcelona Joined: 09/11/06 Gender:	Re: Black's sixth moves, why e5? Reply #13 - 05/31/07 at 12:42:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Marc, If my memory is correct I think there are quite some analysis on a website by an american(?) IM(?). I think his view was similar to yours. I will check it out later... Thanks and hope you find this link, I am really interested.


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Viking God Member Offline Posts: 673 Location: Norway Joined: 10/12/04 Gender:	Re: Black's sixth moves, why e5? Reply #12 - 05/31/07 at 08:44:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Marc, If my memory is correct I think there are quite some analysis on a website by an american(?) IM(?). I think his view was similar to yours. I will check it out later...


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Marc Narciso YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 20 Location: Barcelona Joined: 09/11/06 Gender:	Re: Black's sixth moves, why e5? Reply #11 - 05/30/07 at 21:59:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	kylemeister wrote on 02/26/07 at 21:39:42: If you mean 6...Nc6 in the Classical, 7. d5 is considered rather good for White. 6...Nbd7 is quite playable, but usually transposes to 6...e5 7. 0-0 Nbd7, an older line which a bit out of favour these days. 6...Na6 seems to be fine, if you want to try to transpose to the 6...e5 7. 0-0 Na6 line (6...Na6 7. 0-0 e5 8. de would be a particularly harmless version of the Exchange) .... Nobody plays it, but I have always thought that 6...Nc6!? 7d5 Nb4! (as played once by Korneev) can´t be that bad for black. Black will not rush with Na6-c5 ideas if the knight is not attaked, just keep it on b4 for the moment and play with ...e6 and probably ...Re8. Also ...a5 can be useful sometimes. What do you think? I don´t really see the supposed white´s advantage here. Maybe 7Be3 is better than 7d5 ? Any thoughts are welcome...


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Black's sixth moves, why e5? Reply #10 - 04/08/07 at 16:49:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hmm ...I used to play 6...Nbd7 regularly (years ago, originally inspired by the young Bobby Fischer), and don't recall being concerned about 7. Be3. Looks as though I should have, though. I wonder if this is a product of JC's fertile mind. By the way, I see that John is running for president of the US. Well, at least some John Cox is (as a Republican, i.e. conservative). For what it's worth, ECO-E 3rd ed., Small ECO 2nd ed. and NCO all think that 14. Nd2 thing is either equal or unclear.


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Glenn Snow God Member Offline Posts: 1720 Location: Franklin Joined: 09/27/03 Gender:	Re: Black's sixth moves, why e5? Reply #9 - 04/08/07 at 12:42:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: I've always wondered about this. Why is 6...e5 considered the main line. Why not commit the knight first? I've found out that if I commit the knight first I do not run into the trouble of the exchange variation (not that much trouble literally, but just one less option for white). So far I've not had any problems doing that, but I'm curious if there are any drawbacks to this compared to 6...e5. White can play 7.Be3 e5 8.d5!, and if 8...Ng4 then 9.Bd2 f5 10.Ng5. And as IM John Cox points out in his great work Starting Out: 1.d4!, "White can still caster queenside in a variation like 10...Ndf6 11.exf5 gxf5 12.h3 Nh6 13.Qc2". Of course another drawback for most of us is that we don't play the ...Nbd7 variations anyway, but if it weren't for the above problem I'd probably venture it against an opponent known to play the exchange variation. Quote: As Grivas shows, maybe the Gallagher's recomendation for Black in exchange variation 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 g6 4.e4 Bg7 5.Nf3 00 6.Be2 e5 7.dxe dxe 8.Qxd8 Rxd8 9.Bg5 Re8 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.cxd c6 12.Bc4 cxd 13.Bxd5 Nd7 is closer to '+=' that to '='. Really? Does anyone else feel that way? I thought this variation was another complete answer to the exchange variation which required a little accuracy from White for him not to risk being worse. However, looking at my old ECO E vol.2, it show White maintaining a += advantage too starting with 14.Nd2.
	« Last Edit: 04/08/07 at 17:26:06 by Glenn Snow »

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Lou_Cyber Full Member Offline "I didn´t understand that. It must be true." Posts: 237 Location: Rendsburg Joined: 01/28/05 Gender:	Re: Black's sixth moves, why e5? Reply #8 - 03/19/07 at 00:29:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Personally, I'd be quite happy if Black plays some more risky stuff on move 8 [/quote] Sorry, I meant move 9 and alternative moves like c6, Nbd7 or Rf8 instead of the well known Re8.

	If you try, you may lose. If you don´t try, you have lost.
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Dink Heckler God Member Offline Love-Forty Posts: 902 Joined: 02/01/07 Gender:	Re: Black's sixth moves, why e5? Reply #7 - 03/14/07 at 12:29:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Lou_Cyber wrote on 03/14/07 at 07:07:32: I concur that the exchange variation isn´t bad vor white. He is by no means worse than black. Trouble is that black can reach an equal game without any special problems, e.g. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 g6 4.e4 Bg7 5.Nf3 00 6.Be2 e5 7.dxe dxe 8.Qxd8 Rxd8 9.Bg5 Re8 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.cxd c6 12.Bc4 cxd 13.Bxd5 Nd7= In fact it is a very good line for white when facing a stronger player. This player will have to work very hard to get more than a draw after move 13 or he has to play more risky stuff on move 8., where white has good chances to get a favourable position. Personally, I'd be quite happy if Black plays some more risky stuff on move 8

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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: Black's sixth moves, why e5? Reply #6 - 03/14/07 at 11:15:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	As Grivas shows, maybe the Gallagher's recomendation for Black in exchange variation 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 g6 4.e4 Bg7 5.Nf3 00 6.Be2 e5 7.dxe dxe 8.Qxd8 Rxd8 9.Bg5 Re8 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.cxd c6 12.Bc4 cxd 13.Bxd5 Nd7 is closer to '+=' that to '='. To my opinion (and experience!) the great idea 9..Rf8! is stronger and black can play far more energetically and cause white some practical problems. I also don't trust the ..c6 variation.


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Lou_Cyber Full Member Offline "I didn´t understand that. It must be true." Posts: 237 Location: Rendsburg Joined: 01/28/05 Gender:	Re: Black's sixth moves, why e5? Reply #5 - 03/14/07 at 07:07:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 03/13/07 at 15:57:13: Camlon wrote on 03/09/07 at 03:50:27: Grumpy wrote on 02/26/07 at 21:26:22: I've always wondered about this. Why is 6...e5 considered the main line. Why not commit the knight first? I've found out that if I commit the knight first I do not run into the trouble of the exchange variation (not that much trouble literally, but just one less option for white). So far I've not had any problems doing that, but I'm curious if there are any drawbacks to this compared to 6...e5. The exchange variation is ridiculously bad for white so you shouldn’t worry very much about that. Just read a bit about it and you will find out that it is terrible move for white. The Exchange KID may not be a very good winning try, but it certainly doesn't give White the worse game. I concur that the exchange variation isn´t bad vor white. He is by no means worse than black. Trouble is that black can reach an equal game without any special problems, e.g. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 g6 4.e4 Bg7 5.Nf3 00 6.Be2 e5 7.dxe dxe 8.Qxd8 Rxd8 9.Bg5 Re8 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.cxd c6 12.Bc4 cxd 13.Bxd5 Nd7= In fact it is a very good line for white when facing a stronger player. This player will have to work very hard to get more than a draw after move 13 or he has to play more risky stuff on move 8., where white has good chances to get a favourable position. But generally white should try to get more than equality against the KID. Trouble with 6. ... Nc6 is 7.d5 and white can´t play the thematic Nce7 reaching the main lines. The knight is taken away from the action and white should be better. Regards Lou

	If you try, you may lose. If you don´t try, you have lost.
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Black's sixth moves, why e5? Reply #4 - 03/13/07 at 15:57:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Camlon wrote on 03/09/07 at 03:50:27: Grumpy wrote on 02/26/07 at 21:26:22: I've always wondered about this. Why is 6...e5 considered the main line. Why not commit the knight first? I've found out that if I commit the knight first I do not run into the trouble of the exchange variation (not that much trouble literally, but just one less option for white). So far I've not had any problems doing that, but I'm curious if there are any drawbacks to this compared to 6...e5. The exchange variation is ridiculously bad for white so you shouldn’t worry very much about that. Just read a bit about it and you will find out that it is terrible move for white. The Exchange KID may not be a very good winning try, but it certainly doesn't give White the worse game.

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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Black's sixth moves, why e5? Reply #3 - 03/09/07 at 04:40:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	It's interesting how numerous GMs and IMs have seen fit to play such a ridiculous, terribly bad line.


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Camlon YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 3 Joined: 02/27/07	Re: Black's sixth moves, why e5? Reply #2 - 03/09/07 at 03:50:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Grumpy wrote on 02/26/07 at 21:26:22: I've always wondered about this. Why is 6...e5 considered the main line. Why not commit the knight first? I've found out that if I commit the knight first I do not run into the trouble of the exchange variation (not that much trouble literally, but just one less option for white). So far I've not had any problems doing that, but I'm curious if there are any drawbacks to this compared to 6...e5. The exchange variation is ridiculously bad for white so you shouldn’t worry very much about that. Just read a bit about it and you will find out that it is terrible move for white.


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Black's sixth moves, why e5? Reply #1 - 02/26/07 at 21:39:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	If you mean 6...Nc6 in the Classical, 7. d5 is considered rather good for White. 6...Nbd7 is quite playable, but usually transposes to 6...e5 7. 0-0 Nbd7, an older line which a bit out of favour these days. 6...Na6 seems to be fine, if you want to try to transpose to the 6...e5 7. 0-0 Na6 line (6...Na6 7. 0-0 e5 8. de would be a particularly harmless version of the Exchange) ....


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Grumpy YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1 Joined: 02/26/07	Black's sixth moves, why e5? 02/26/07 at 21:26:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	I've always wondered about this. Why is 6...e5 considered the main line. Why not commit the knight first? I've found out that if I commit the knight first I do not run into the trouble of the exchange variation (not that much trouble literally, but just one less option for white). So far I've not had any problems doing that, but I'm curious if there are any drawbacks to this compared to 6...e5.


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