What´s up with 6. ... Qe8!? - Wasnt it an idea by Kupreichik to avoid the exchange variation? In the late ´90s it scored quite well.

Marc Narciso wrote on 05/30/07 at 21:59:31:


I'm just armchairing here, but White has to be pretty good after, say, 7...Nb4 8 Be3 and 9 Nd4-b5?  What is the knight doing on b4 that it couldn't have done on b8?

I was recently looking for an alternative for black to the main line and decided to look at 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Na6.  However, I found the simple exchange variation 8. dxe5 dxe5 9. Qc2 was not to my liking. 
 
I remembered reading the name of this thread once and decided to take a look at an on line database for some ideas.  I found that  the seldom played 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 a5 7. O-O Na6  has been played by some very strong players on both sides of the board and black seems to hold up fairly well.  Against the white alternative   6. Be2 a5 7. Be3, Fritz 10 found 7...Ng4 8. Bg5 h6 9. Bh4 Na6 adequate for black.

So this got me to thinking that delaying the central …e5 (or …c5) counterattack until after …a5 and …Na6 have been played just might make for some very interesting chess.  I suppose the main threat would be white’s e5 thrust.  

Anyway, I haven’t gotten very are along yet but I thought I’d put this idea out there and see how others react and if anyone out there has any experience with this idea.

Yes, 8.0-0 e5 seems the most natural, when either 9.Bg5 a la Petrosian or 9.Ne1 a la the Classical seem like they'd give White better versions of what he usually gets.  Kasparov faced this in a simul once and chose: 9.Ne1 Nbd7 10.Nd3 Ne8 11.Be3 f5 12.f3 f4 13.Bf2 g5 14.b4 Ndf6 15.c5.

I'm reviving this line because I've just faced the same line twice in serious play.  I lost the first and won the second, both because of, but not in the opening.

Here are the moves:1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Nf3 Nc6?!/!? 7.d5 Nb8!?

In the first game I tried 8.Ne1? and just got on the bad side of a classic king-side attack.  I tried 8.Bg5 the second time and earned a slight advantage.

I wanted to play 8.Be3, which appears to be the main line, but all the analysis I've seen suggests this is just not adequate for more than a miniscule advantage with best play.

I had always thought this was just a waste of time, and the books I have confirm this bias.  However, when I studied the lines in more depth it became obvious that the most White can hope for is more space and nagging pressure.  Black can hope for favorable transpositions to all sorts of weird KID positions which are very unclear.

I remember Jesse Kraai used to teach this opening to his students, and I used to crush them. (I only played one game against Jesse Kraai himself, and got clobbered as Black.) But there's been a revival on the internet of this perversely pernicious line.

Does anyone have an antidote that really seems to work well?

I always play the exchange variation with white! (instead of Be2 I use h3, according to Grivas it has some advantages). Black needs to now some theory as otherwise he will be worse. I use it specially against stronger players. I think that the exchange is equal if black plays it accuratly, and if you play the mainline with white you come into the garden of black.

Against weaker players I use the Petrosian line, d5. Very strategic

Marc,
I finally found the site I was thinking about - but it does NOT cover the line you suggested 

It deals with 6.-,e5 7. O-O Nc6 8.d5 Nd4!??
If you are interested here it is: http://www.davidlevinchess.com/ under Opening theory.

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Thanks and hope you find this link, I am really interested.

kylemeister wrote on 02/26/07 at 21:39:42:


Nobody plays it, but I have always thought that 6...Nc6!? 7d5 Nb4! (as played once by Korneev) can´t be that bad for black.
Black will not rush with Na6-c5 ideas if the knight is not attaked, just keep it on b4 for the moment and play with ...e6 and probably ...Re8. Also ...a5 can be useful sometimes.

What do you think? I don´t really  see the supposed white´s advantage here. Maybe 7Be3 is better than 7d5 ? Any thoughts are welcome...

 

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White can play 7.Be3 e5 8.d5!, and if 8...Ng4 then 9.Bd2 f5 10.Ng5.  And as IM John Cox points out in his great work Starting Out: 1.d4!, "White can still caster queenside in a variation like 10...Ndf6 11.exf5 gxf5 12.h3 Nh6 13.Qc2".  Of course another drawback for most of us is that we don't play the ...Nbd7 variations anyway, but if it weren't for the above problem I'd probably venture it against an opponent known to play the exchange variation.

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Really?  Does anyone else feel that way?  I thought this variation was another complete answer to the exchange variation which required a little accuracy from White for him not to risk being worse.  However, looking at my old ECO E vol.2, it show White maintaining a += advantage too starting with 14.Nd2.

Lou_Cyber wrote on 03/14/07 at 07:07:32:


Personally, I'd be quite happy if Black plays some more risky stuff on move 8 

Markovich wrote on 03/13/07 at 15:57:13:


I concur that the exchange variation isn´t bad vor white. He is by no means worse than black. Trouble is that black can reach an equal game without any special problems, e.g. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 g6 4.e4 Bg7 5.Nf3 00 6.Be2 e5 7.dxe dxe 8.Qxd8 Rxd8 9.Bg5 Re8 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.cxd c6 12.Bc4 cxd 13.Bxd5 Nd7=

In fact it is a very good line for white when facing a stronger player. This player will have to work very hard to get more than a draw after move 13 or he has to play more risky stuff on move 8., where white has good chances to get a favourable position.

But generally white should try to get more than equality against the KID.

Trouble with 6. ... Nc6 is 7.d5 and white can´t play the thematic Nce7 reaching the main lines. The knight is taken away from the action and white should be better.

Regards Lou

It's interesting how numerous GMs and IMs have seen fit to play such a ridiculous, terribly bad line.

If you mean 6...Nc6 in the Classical, 7. d5 is considered rather good for White.  6...Nbd7 is quite playable, but usually transposes to 6...e5 7. 0-0 Nbd7, an older line which a bit out of favour these days.  6...Na6 seems to be fine, if you want to try to transpose to the 6...e5 7. 0-0 Na6 line (6...Na6 7. 0-0 e5 8. de would be a particularly harmless version of the Exchange) ....