Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience (Read 35217 times)
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience
Reply #78 - 03/22/07 at 00:25:11
Post Tools
JonHecht wrote on 03/21/07 at 19:35:02:
Concerning not knowing the rules, this situation happened to me. I was tied for sole first with my opponent in the last round, a full point ahead of anyone else. If we had drawn then we each got 400 dollars. As a result I offered a draw on move 5, which he accepted. The TD noticed and said there is a USCF rule against GM draws, and forfeited the game for both of us. As a result rather than 400 dollars I got 50 dollars... I didn't know there was a rule about that...


Ridiculous!  Double forfeit?  There is such a rule?  If so, it's an invitation to collude on a seemingly sharp sequence that ends in a draw.  There are plenty of such lines.

I once with White made a 20-move, last-round draw with someone who was 1/2 point ahead of me for 1st.  Some fool accused me of making a "GM draw."  Yeah, as if I'm a GM.  I wanted to win badly, but the guy just proved that my opening wasn't much good.  What am I supposed to do, lose, so that someone else can enjoy the spectacle?!
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JonHecht
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 345
Joined: 01/17/07
Re: Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience
Reply #77 - 03/21/07 at 19:35:02
Post Tools
Concerning not knowing the rules, this situation happened to me. I was tied for sole first with my opponent in the last round, a full point ahead of anyone else. If we had drawn then we each got 400 dollars. As a result I offered a draw on move 5, which he accepted. The TD noticed and said there is a USCF rule against GM draws, and forfeited the game for both of us. As a result rather than 400 dollars I got 50 dollars... I didn't know there was a rule about that...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience
Reply #76 - 03/21/07 at 18:44:34
Post Tools
As much as I enjoy seeing a lawyer arguing for disregarding the rules...  Shocked

Still, I think the big problem is that many chessplayers don't know the rules or has gotten away with disregarding them so long that they've forgotten them...

Taylor simply should've known better, just like people should know better than 1) suddenly offering a draw while the opponent is thinking, 2) claim a draw by making the move that becomes the third repetition etc etc

or, for that matter, pass the zebra crossing during 'Don't Walk' - you usually get away with it, but if you get hit, it's your own fault.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1551
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience
Reply #75 - 03/21/07 at 18:24:26
Post Tools
I didn't say that events should be governed only by mutual trust, nor that anyone raising a rules complaint was necessarily behaving obnoxiously. But what (I say) one has to recognise is that it's good to have rules, but it's not always good for them to be enforced all the time, and it's always good to remember that when you are enforcing them a great many more considerations than a po-faced 'rules are rules' apply.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience
Reply #74 - 03/21/07 at 12:49:53
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 03/21/07 at 00:27:48:
I didn't answer your point that I was saying strong players don't cheat because I didn't understand it. I didn't remember saying that.

It's true that in general genuine lovers of the game do not cheat, and that those who have spent a long time in a given community are entitled to the respect of that community, and that on the whole strong players are more likely than weak players to fall into either of those categories, but that's not quite the same thing.

In reply to your last sentence; yes, pretty much. I've never needed to call the arbiter and complain. People who do are far more likely than not to be behaving obnoxiously, in my experience.


I'm prepared to concede your point that amatuer tournaments with big prizes appear to give rise to cheating.  The latest Chess Life has a long discussion of this subject, which I found persuasive.  Based on what I read, it does appear that there is a very high level of concern, over here, on this subject.  Fortunately there is also some recognition that too much concern with cheating could hurt the game as much as cheating itself.   

But I will maintain my point that blanket condemnation of anyone raising a rules complaint undermines the rule of law.  In saying that I don't deny that some people do complain obnoxiously and unnecessarily.   

I respectfully doubt that you would actually prefer to play in chess events governed only by the mutual trust of supposed gentlemen.  Rules and arbitration may be an evil, but the overwhelming majority would agree that they're necessary.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience
Reply #73 - 03/21/07 at 07:15:58
Post Tools
JonHecht wrote on 03/21/07 at 02:44:33:
I actually think that strong players would be more tempted to cheat, particularly professionals as it is their means of living riding on a tournament.


I sort of feel as though this thread has outlived its usefulness, and now will generate only animosity, but I do think that this comment is surprising enough (to me) to warrant response.

I actually think that it is more likely to see cheating of any kind in the lower levels.  It is precisely because professionals have more to lose and less to gain that they are less likely to cheat.  It is probably true that there is more cheating and more cheaters caught at the restricted rating sections of these big tournaments.  Some of this is certainly from ignorance (note taking comes to mind) but also scamming is easier and less noticible at the lower levels, and almost as lucrative.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JonHecht
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 345
Joined: 01/17/07
Re: Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience
Reply #72 - 03/21/07 at 02:44:33
Post Tools
I actually think that strong players would be more tempted to cheat, particularly professionals as it is their means of living riding on a tournament.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1551
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience
Reply #71 - 03/21/07 at 00:27:48
Post Tools
I didn't answer your point that I was saying strong players don't cheat because I didn't understand it. I didn't remember saying that.

It's true that in general genuine lovers of the game do not cheat, and that those who have spent a long time in a given community are entitled to the respect of that community, and that on the whole strong players are more likely than weak players to fall into either of those categories, but that's not quite the same thing.

In reply to your last sentence; yes, pretty much. I've never needed to call the arbiter and complain. People who do are far more likely than not to be behaving obnoxiously, in my experience.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience
Reply #70 - 03/20/07 at 19:09:50
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 03/19/07 at 13:19:08:
This is what administratively minded people always say of course, ‘oh good heavens no, we’re not accusing you of cheating, we’re merely barring you from talking to people during the game because those are the rules in place to prevent cheating.’ 

The trouble is that this is a legalistic fiction which ignores human nature and doesn’t work. What happens is that the rules, being annoying and inconvenient to those honest players who make up the overwhelming majority, are ignored until someone takes it into their head to suspect cheating and make a complaint, and only then enforced. The authorities, of course, wring their hands and say that if only the rules were always observed and enforced, by everyone, all the time, and any violation no matter how minor always reported as we have asked in our guidelines, no such problem would arise. But it doesn’t happen, and it never will. History has shown that by no process can this eternal truth be implanted into the mind of administrators.

The effect of the said fiction is also undermined if you promote the guidelines Mr Aigner quotes which urge children to report ‘cheating or rule violations’ to the authorities.


I was going to let this discussion die with the quoted observations, but since it continues, I will rejoin.  You still have to deal with my point that the rules are there for a reason, and that if we jump up and say "What??! You accuse me of cheating!!??" whenever there is a rules complaint, we undermine the rule of law.  Likewise when a complaint has been made, the arbiters must be accorded some reasonable scope within which it deal with it.  It approaches childishness, it seems to me, to dismiss arbiters as merely "administratively minded people."

There is a certain tendency in people to be mistrustful.  Recognizing that, bad appearances, which Taylor certainly created, are in most respects as harmful as actual cheating.  This is the same principle as that an officer of the court should avoid even the appearance of impropriety -- and can be disciplined merely for having created such an appearance.  So when a ruling is made that requires someone to amend his behavior in an instance of possible cheating, it does not per se accuse him of impropriety.  In itself, it merely says that he has created an appearance of the same, and that he should suitably change his conduct.

The difference between accusing someone of cheating and merely raising a rules complaint, or making a ruling based on one, is not trivial or merely legalistic.  It is the difference between the rule of law and the rule of the popular and strong.  What, shall we sweep away the rules that govern chess events, and dismiss the arbiters, on the ground that some less artificial form of regulation would do instead?

You have also not answered my point that you appear to assume that stronger players are less likely to cheat than weaker ones.  I can see no rational basis for that.  I wasn't aware that Elo points conferred virtue as well as chess strength.  In any case, shall stronger players not be governed by the same rules as weaker ones?

You say, "What happens is that the rules, being annoying and inconvenient to those honest players who make up the overwhelming majority, are ignored until someone takes it into their head to suspect cheating and make a complaint, and only then enforced."

As I read this, you say that the rules are in essence tools of obnoxious, suspicious players, and that the overwhelming majority of "honest players" don't need them.  Is that really what you mean?
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience
Reply #69 - 03/20/07 at 18:45:20
Post Tools
[quote author=Uberdeker link=1173878878/45#48 date=1173980490][quote author=Dink Heckler link=1173878878/45#45 date=1173966598]Wrt smileys, it's often difficult to discern a writer's tone in an off-the-cuff internet communication, hence some people use smileys simply to avoid the possibility of any misunderstanding. I think this can be a good thing, if applied intelligently.
[/quote]

In my opinion, it is overall not a good thing, because the posts of those who do not use them are construed as being harsh and unfriendly. It creates more misunderstandings than it avoids.[/quote]

You're verging on circularity here.  It's not the absence of smileys per se that causes problems, it's the misconstual of something written.  One can hardly blame those who use smileys for that.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JonHecht
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 345
Joined: 01/17/07
Re: Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience
Reply #68 - 03/20/07 at 16:53:23
Post Tools
Willempie wrote on 03/20/07 at 11:46:32:
Maybe. But that was basically what the TD did. Either dont come near the board or dont talk, seems reasonable enough. If it goes for Danailov it goes for Taylor too Wink

Incidentally the original article seems to be "gone" from the chesscafe archives. Kafka at work? Hmm...

Because of this earlier I was able to get an archived version by doing a google search then cache, but now that seems to be gone too... It isn't in their archives like all other articles are. Regretting publishing it? The cat's already out of the bag, at this point they should simply allow it to be available.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience
Reply #67 - 03/20/07 at 14:34:48
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 03/20/07 at 14:17:40:
Yes, IF the question is cheating and not disturbing the opponent. We seem to be going round in circles.

Apparently the guy is not your reasonable sociable guy, but someone who should be called a repeat offender. Giving him the combination of talking away from the board and allowing him to watch the board will lead to him talking at the board and watching away.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1551
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience
Reply #66 - 03/20/07 at 14:17:40
Post Tools
Yes, IF the question is cheating and not disturbing the opponent. We seem to be going round in circles.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience
Reply #65 - 03/20/07 at 12:12:06
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 03/20/07 at 11:53:53:
Well, no. That's not the same as 'don't talk near the board'.

From the various accounts he wasnt just talking near the board...

We have an IM, who judging from his writing is a complete ass, about whom a complaint gets in about annoying behaviour around the game of his wife. At a previous tournament a similar complaint AND accusation of cheating was made (see letter of the TD). The TD know has a choice. Either he completely enforces the tournament rules (undesirable both on personal and atmospheric considerations) and ban him from talking with his wife or he talks with him and gives him the either/or choice. The "dont talk near the board" isnt an option for the TD as chances are that things will escalate at some point and cheating accusations will be made again, which is very bad for business as can be seen from the result of this bad variation on "j'accuse" and "der Prozess".
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1551
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Taylor's so-called Kafkaesque Experience
Reply #64 - 03/20/07 at 11:53:53
Post Tools
Well, no. That's not the same as 'don't talk near the board'.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo