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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ? (Read 24382 times)
Markovich
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Re: Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ?
Reply #31 - 05/25/07 at 13:06:54
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Classical, for most young players.  The Open constitutes a big body of theory and requires some sophistication.  Also I doubt that at the scholastic level, your kids will get to play many Opens, given that it all begins on move 9 or so.  The Schliemann is great if your opponent takes on f5, which many kids will do.  But in so many of the Schliemann lines, Black is behind in development, and teaching the Schliemann would thus undermine the important lesson that, second only to superior material, superior activity is what wins games of chess.   

Frankly I think the Petroff is perfectly good for teaching to young players.
  
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Re: Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ?
Reply #30 - 05/24/07 at 15:19:43
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Which variation would be best suited for scholastics? Classical, Open or Schliemann?
  
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Re: Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ?
Reply #29 - 05/14/07 at 23:32:03
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You could try the New Archangel, or the Modern Archangel, or whatever it's called.  You know, the one where Black puts his Bishop on c5 but doesn't put the Queen's Bishop on b7.  It seems to be gaining in popularity, and I doubt anyone under Master strength will know any theory on it.  And it's sound:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 6.Bb3 Bc5, when one line runs 7.c3 d6 8.d4 Bb6.  In the old days this was dismissed as bad for Black due to 9.dxe5, but now the reverse is true; if I recall correctly, after 9.dxe5 Black can look forward to a slightly better ending.  I'm not sure where I saw some analysis on this, but it's worth looking into.  

Edit: Off the top of my head, I think the ending that's now considered better for Black is:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 6.Bb3 Bc5 7.c3 d6 8.d4 Bb6 9.dxe5 Nxe5 10.Nxe5 dxe5 11.Qxd8+ Kxd8 12.Bxf7 Rf8 13.Bd5 Nxd5 14.exd5 Bb7

I actually don't know a lot about his line, so I wouldn't be surprised if White has some improvements in the above line.  Still, I think the Modern Archangel is definitely worth investigating further.

  
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Re: Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ?
Reply #28 - 05/14/07 at 22:29:38
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routermeister wrote on 04/10/07 at 16:57:46:
Hello all,

I decided to construct a repertoire, including the Ruy Lopez as both black and white.  I have been enjoying the study of IM Greet's outstanding new book, but I'm looking for advice as to which variant to employ when facing the Ruy Lopez as black.

Reading advice on Jeremy Silman's website, he recommends that anyone below master avoid the Zaitsev.  Does everyone here concur?  I'm looking for the best variant to allow for a sharp tactical game, yet remain sound, and that has IM/GM's playing the line so I can study their games.  My playing strength is in the 1600-1800 range, but I'm studying quite a bit right now.

All advice will be greatly appreciated.


It might be stretching your criteria a little bit but I would recommend giving Birds Defence a whirl. It was all the rage for a while in the 80s, even top GMs were playing it. Its frowned on somewhat now, though for clubplayers still very playable. If you intend to play it a higher level you are going to need to improve on Fressinet-Fontaine 2005, either by trying another move order for Black or directly improving on Fontaines play. Although Fontaine won the game he was in serious trouble in the opening. A recent Lopez book, I think it was Greets, recommends the white player to follow Fressinets lead. Nonetheless I think at club level, a modest amount of work on this system can lead to good results with black. Also it can lead to very tactical games and a lot of white players aren't that prepared to face it. Take a look at some of Malaniuks old games. 
  
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Re: Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ?
Reply #27 - 04/17/07 at 20:00:44
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kylemeister wrote on 04/17/07 at 16:30:33:
The games that have stuck in my memory as being possible model games for White with 5. Re1 are these ...


[Event "Santa Monica"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1976.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Shamkovich, Leonid Aleksandrovich"]
[Black "Blohm, David"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "RL 7.4.2"]
[ECO "C67"]
[PlyCount "57"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6 6. Nxe5 Be7 7. Qh5 O-O 8. Bd3 
g6 9. Nxg6 fxg6 10. Bxg6 hxg6 11. Qxg6  Kh8 12. b3 Bf6 13. Re3 Bg7 14. Bb2 Rf6 15. 
Rh3  Kg8 16. Qh7  Kf8 17. Bxf6 Bxf6 18. Rg3 Ne7 19. Nc3 Qe8 20. Qh6  Kf7 21. Re1 
Qh8 22. Rxe7  Kxe7 23. Nd5  Ke6 24. Nxc7  Ke7 25. Nd5  Ke6 26. Nf4  Kf5 27. Qg6   
Kxf4 28. d4 Bxd4 29. Qg5  1-0

[Event "Hastings"]
[Site ""]
[Date "2002.??.??"]
[Round "5"]
[White "McShane, Luke J"]
[Black "Nielsen, Peter-Heine"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2546"]
[BlackElo "2620"]
[NIC "RL 7.4.2"]
[ECO "C67"]
[PlyCount "39"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6 6. Nxe5 Be7 7. Bd3 O-O 8. Nc3 
Nxe5 9. Rxe5 Bf6 10. Re3 Re8 11. Nd5 Bg5 12. f4 Bh6 13. Rh3 c6 14. Ne3 Ne4 15. Bxe4 
Rxe4 16. Nf5 Qb6  17. d4 Bxf4 18. Qh5 h6 19. Bxf4 Rxf4 20. Re1 1-0

[Event "Khanty Mansyisk rapid"]
[Site ""]
[Date "2005.??.??"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Balogh, Csaba"]
[Black "Karjakin, Sergey"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2567"]
[BlackElo "2658"]
[NIC "RL 7.4.2"]
[ECO "C67"]
[PlyCount "93"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6 6. Nxe5 Be7 7. Bf1 Nxe5 8. Rxe5 
O-O 9. d4 Bf6 10. Re1 Nf5 11. c3 d5 12. Bd3 g6 13. Nd2 Nd6 14. Nf3 Bf5 15. Bf4 Bxd3 
16. Qxd3 c6 17. Re2 Re8 18. Ne5 Bg7 19. Rae1 Re6 20. f3 Nf5 21. g4 Nd6 22. Nxf7 Rxe2 
23. Nxd8 Rxe1  24. Kf2 Re8 25. Nxc6 bxc6 26. Bxd6 Re6 27. Bf4 Rf8 28. Bd2 Bf6 29. 
b4 Bh4  30. Kg2 Rfe8 31. Kf1 Rb8 32. a4 Be7 33. Bf4 Rf8 34. Be5 Bf6 35. Qe3 Bg7 36. 
Kg2 Re7 37. h4 h6 38. Kg3 Ref7 39. f4 Kh7 40. a5 a6 41. g5 h5 42. Bd6 Rd8 43. Qe6 
Rf5 44. Bc7 Rdf8 45. Qxc6 R8f7 46. b5 Re7 47. bxa6 1-0




Wow, that's quite a memory you have there.
  
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Re: Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ?
Reply #26 - 04/17/07 at 16:30:33
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The games that have stuck in my memory as being possible model games for White with 5. Re1 are these ...


[Event "Santa Monica"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1976.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Shamkovich, Leonid Aleksandrovich"]
[Black "Blohm, David"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "RL 7.4.2"]
[ECO "C67"]
[PlyCount "57"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6 6. Nxe5 Be7 7. Qh5 O-O 8. Bd3 
g6 9. Nxg6 fxg6 10. Bxg6 hxg6 11. Qxg6  Kh8 12. b3 Bf6 13. Re3 Bg7 14. Bb2 Rf6 15. 
Rh3  Kg8 16. Qh7  Kf8 17. Bxf6 Bxf6 18. Rg3 Ne7 19. Nc3 Qe8 20. Qh6  Kf7 21. Re1 
Qh8 22. Rxe7  Kxe7 23. Nd5  Ke6 24. Nxc7  Ke7 25. Nd5  Ke6 26. Nf4  Kf5 27. Qg6   
Kxf4 28. d4 Bxd4 29. Qg5  1-0

[Event "Hastings"]
[Site ""]
[Date "2002.??.??"]
[Round "5"]
[White "McShane, Luke J"]
[Black "Nielsen, Peter-Heine"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2546"]
[BlackElo "2620"]
[NIC "RL 7.4.2"]
[ECO "C67"]
[PlyCount "39"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6 6. Nxe5 Be7 7. Bd3 O-O 8. Nc3 
Nxe5 9. Rxe5 Bf6 10. Re3 Re8 11. Nd5 Bg5 12. f4 Bh6 13. Rh3 c6 14. Ne3 Ne4 15. Bxe4 
Rxe4 16. Nf5 Qb6  17. d4 Bxf4 18. Qh5 h6 19. Bxf4 Rxf4 20. Re1 1-0

[Event "Khanty Mansyisk rapid"]
[Site ""]
[Date "2005.??.??"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Balogh, Csaba"]
[Black "Karjakin, Sergey"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2567"]
[BlackElo "2658"]
[NIC "RL 7.4.2"]
[ECO "C67"]
[PlyCount "93"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6 6. Nxe5 Be7 7. Bf1 Nxe5 8. Rxe5 
O-O 9. d4 Bf6 10. Re1 Nf5 11. c3 d5 12. Bd3 g6 13. Nd2 Nd6 14. Nf3 Bf5 15. Bf4 Bxd3 
16. Qxd3 c6 17. Re2 Re8 18. Ne5 Bg7 19. Rae1 Re6 20. f3 Nf5 21. g4 Nd6 22. Nxf7 Rxe2 
23. Nxd8 Rxe1  24. Kf2 Re8 25. Nxc6 bxc6 26. Bxd6 Re6 27. Bf4 Rf8 28. Bd2 Bf6 29. 
b4 Bh4  30. Kg2 Rfe8 31. Kf1 Rb8 32. a4 Be7 33. Bf4 Rf8 34. Be5 Bf6 35. Qe3 Bg7 36. 
Kg2 Re7 37. h4 h6 38. Kg3 Ref7 39. f4 Kh7 40. a5 a6 41. g5 h5 42. Bd6 Rd8 43. Qe6 
Rf5 44. Bc7 Rdf8 45. Qxc6 R8f7 46. b5 Re7 47. bxa6 1-0


  
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Re: Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ?
Reply #25 - 04/17/07 at 11:34:11
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Hello,

I thought it looked like a decent enough line for white, if trying to avoid the Berlin endgame, when reading the Nez book mentioned. Was not playing the Ruy at the time though, so didn't follow up much. Probably black can get equal chances, if knows what he is doing.

Bye John S
  
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chk
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Re: Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ?
Reply #24 - 04/17/07 at 10:25:49
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Oh, I didn't know about this game, I will search for that one. The ones I have seen were:

[Event "World Championship 01st"]
[Site "USA"]
[Date "1886.01.11"]
[Round "14"]
[White "Steinitz, William"]
[Black "Zukertort, Johannes Hermann"]
[ECO "C67"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6 6. Nxe5 Be7 7. Bd3 O-O 8. Nc3 Nxe5 9. Rxe5 c6 10. b3 Ne8 11. Bb2 d5 12. Qf3 Bf6 13. Re2 Nc7 14. Ba3 Re8 15. Rae1 Ne6 16. Na4 Bd7 17. Nc5 Nxc5 18. Rxe8+ Bxe8 19. Bxc5 b6 20. Ba3 Bd7 21. Qg3 c5 22. c3 Be6 23. Bb2 Qd7 24. Bc2 Re8 25. h3 b5 26. d4 cxd4 27. cxd4 Rc8 28. Bd3 Bf5 29. Bxf5 Qxf5 30. Qg4 Qxg4 31. hxg4 h6 32. Re2 b4 33. g3 a5 34. Kf1 a4 35. bxa4 Ra8 36. Re1 Rxa4 37. Ra1 Kf8 38. Ke2 Ke7 39. Kd3 Ra6 40. a3 bxa3 41. Rxa3 Rxa3+ 42. Bxa3+ Kd7 43. Bf8 Ke8 44. Bd6 g6 45. Be5 Bd8 46. Bg7 h5 47. gxh5 gxh5 48. Be5 Kd7 1/2-1/2

(and some other Steinitz-Zukertort games from this WCh, esp. round 6 & 10)

and the following 2 modern?!? games:

[Event "Lanzarote"]
[Site "Lanzarote"]
[Date "1973.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Ljubojevic, Ljubomir"]
[Black "Calvo Minguez, Ricardo"]
[ECO "C67"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6 6. Nxe5 Be7 7. Qh5 Nxe5 8. Qxe5 Nxb5 9. Qxg7 Rf8 10. a4 Nd6 11. Nc3 Nf5 12. Nd5 f6 13. Qxh7 d6 14. Qg6+ Rf7 15. Nxf6+ Kf8 16. Qg8# 1-0

[Event "URS-ch U18"]
[Site "Tbilisi"]
[Date "1976.01.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Kasparov, Garry"]
[Black "Vasilienko"]
[ECO "C67"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6 6. Nxe5 Nxe5 7. Rxe5+ Be7 8. Bd3 O-O 9. Nc3 Bf6 10. Re3 g6 11. b3 b6 12. Qg4 Bb7 13. Bb2 Ne8 14. Rh3 d5 15. Qf4 Bg5 16. Qe5 Bf6 17. Qf4 Bg5 18. Qe5 Bf6 19. Qf4 Bg5 1/2-1/2
  
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Re: Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ?
Reply #23 - 04/17/07 at 10:17:49
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Hello,

Yes, you are right my first line did not clarify very much at all, have fixed now. Think the idea that you mention in the second line, has been played by Nezhmetdinov, but couldn't find the game in Chessbase. It is in the Thinker's press book "Super Nez" if my memory is not playing tricks with me.

Bye John S
  
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Re: Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ?
Reply #22 - 04/17/07 at 07:57:22
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Hi John, I don't quite get your 1st line, can you please fix the typos?

Regarding the 2nd line you give, i.e.:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6,

I think this is a rather nice off-beat line in the Berlin and I was thinking of adopting it, but with the following plan (i.e. without the Bf1 you mention):

6. Nxe5 Nxe5 7. Rxe5+ and Re3 / Bd3 / b3-Bb2 formation (resembling a bit of the Dragon).

It looks as if White has a minor, nevertheless steady plus. Well, sorry I'm a bit off-topic, but what do you all think?

chk
  
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Re: Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ?
Reply #21 - 04/16/07 at 15:10:32
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Hello,

Maybe just to clarify a bit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5 0.0 Nxe4 5Re1 Nc5 is typical blitz rubbish. Only black has chances for advantage with two bishops. Giving up a line because of something like this is insane.
            Whilst 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3Bb5 Nf6 4. 0.0 Nxe4 5 Re1 white may have chances for a very slight advantage. Kaufman in his book "the advantage in black and white", or some similar title recommended this line, with a later Bf1  at some point.
                Neither as much to do with the exchange variation, for reasons Mark states.

Bye John S
 
« Last Edit: 04/17/07 at 10:07:24 by MarinFan »  
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Re: Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ?
Reply #20 - 04/16/07 at 12:55:56
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neuronet wrote on 04/15/07 at 22:36:16:
browniesbane wrote on 04/12/07 at 04:26:17:
If you are playing in the 1600-1800 range, you should be aware that you may see the 6 Re1 line in the open (instead of 6 d4) far more often than you would like. Down in the nether regions of the ICC, I've played maybe 100 opens and seen 6 Re1 maybe 90-95% of the time. This virus even infects somewhat stronger players--I had it played against me last week in a club match by a long-time expert.

Not that the line is bad for black, its just not real interesting when you play it over and over again.


Yes! I am rated around 1400 at ICC, and play the Open Ruy as black. I have yet to have someone play 6d4, which seems a much more fun game. Everyone plays 6Re1. I have to agree that it isn't very interesting: just not very dynamic. Kind of like the Exchange variation (especially since it always goes 6. Re1 Nc5 7. Bxc6 dxc6. I haven't seen any exceptions to this yet. It's got me reconsidering playing the open until my rating improves enough so that I am playing people who push the d pawn early.

On the other hand, I'm more booked up than they are when they play it.


It's not like the Exchange at all, because White has a d-pawn instead of an e-pawn.  That makes a huge difference, since he no longer has a winning ending if all the pieces are traded off.  Yet Black still has his two bishops.  You should not see this line as boring.  Bone up on how to handle the two bishops, and play this to win!
  
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Re: Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ?
Reply #19 - 04/15/07 at 22:36:16
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browniesbane wrote on 04/12/07 at 04:26:17:
If you are playing in the 1600-1800 range, you should be aware that you may see the 6 Re1 line in the open (instead of 6 d4) far more often than you would like. Down in the nether regions of the ICC, I've played maybe 100 opens and seen 6 Re1 maybe 90-95% of the time. This virus even infects somewhat stronger players--I had it played against me last week in a club match by a long-time expert.

Not that the line is bad for black, its just not real interesting when you play it over and over again.


Yes! I am rated around 1400 at ICC, and play the Open Ruy as black. I have yet to have someone play 6d4, which seems a much more fun game. Everyone plays 6Re1. I have to agree that it isn't very interesting: just not very dynamic. Kind of like the Exchange variation (especially since it always goes 6. Re1 Nc5 7. Bxc6 dxc6. I haven't seen any exceptions to this yet. It's got me reconsidering playing the open until my rating improves enough so that I am playing people who push the d pawn early.

On the other hand, I'm more booked up than they are when they play it.
  
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Re: Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ?
Reply #18 - 04/13/07 at 10:01:33
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That makes sense BlkSabb. Forgot about that title. (Stormcrow, your guess was good too.) I like Karolyi's writing in NiC yb. He clearly puts a lot of effort to his analyses.
  
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Re: Which Ruy Lopez Variant to use as Black ?
Reply #17 - 04/13/07 at 08:39:07
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Alias wrote on 04/12/07 at 06:28:55:
Stormcrow,

Is there a special reason why Karolyi's books start at 1993?


It nearly coincides with the end of Kasparov's own Fighting Chess book on his games but that book covers up to 1995.  I bought both books recently.  Karolyi is a terrific writer.
  
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