Tournevyks wrote on 05/04/07 at 16:41:15:


Harding wrote 35 years ago on 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 d5, which can transpose after 4.exd5 Nxd5 5.Nf3 Nc6: "This counter, would it not cause confusion with the analogous Ruy Lopez idea, should be named after Marshall, the only grandmaster who had faith in Black's game and played the line repeatedly. In his book My Fifty Years of Chess he wrote: 'The theorists frown on this move because it is likely to lose a pawn. However, it has been my experience that White loses time and weakens his position in gaining the pawn, so that the sacrifice becomes a worthwhile investment!' The burden of proof lies very heavy on Black however: White should probably win."

That might indeed be the case after 6.0-0 and neither Bc5, Be7 nor Bg4 is satisfactory.
But I don't agree, that 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 is dull. There are lines after Bc5, in which Black tries to take over the initiative with ...d5 or ...f5. A very funny line is 4.d3 Bc5 5.0-0?! d6 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4 g5 8.Bg3 h5! 9.Nxg5 h4! 10.Nxf7 hxg3! 11.Nxd8 Bg4 12.Qd2 Nd4 13.Nc3 (13.h3 Ne2+ 14.Kh1 Rxh3+!!) Nf3+ 0-1 (Tsjigorin around 1900).

Another idea is 4...Be7 and 5...0-0. If White plays slowly with an early c2-c3 or Bc4-b3, Marshall's gambit idea ...d5 is completely correct. So: 4...Be7 5.0-0 (5.c3 d5!) 0-0 6.Re1 (6.a4 d5!?; 6.c3 d5!; 6.Bb3 d5!; even 6.Nbd2 d5!?) d6 7.a4  Kh8 8.c3 (after 8.a5 a6 9.Nc3 Ng8 and 8.h3 Ng8 Black follows the same plan) Ng8 9.d4 (9.a5 a6 10.Qb3 f5!?) f5 10.dxe5 fxe4 11.Rxe4 Rxf3!? Zambrana-Matamaros Franco, Dos Hermanas 2006.
But 7.c3 Kh8 8.Bb3 seems to prevent Black's plan; Ng8 9.d4. So we get something like 8...Bg4 9.Nbd2 Nd7 10.Qc2 (10.Nf1 f5!? 11.Be6 Bxf3) Bg5 and Black again is directing his pieces towards White's king. But I am confident, that none of your opponents will get that far. When I used to play ...e5 as Black, I followed plans like this, with good results overall.
Black's play, when ...d5 is allowed, is very similar to the real Ruy Lopez Marshall Gambit.

Tournevyks wrote on 05/04/07 at 16:41:15:

There are a couple of threads on it here. Usually with some quite insightful points (usually also not by me)
Quote:

It doesnt have a name, but I might be able to dig up some game references. Otherwise just enter the moves on www.chesslive.de and do a search. Iirc Steinitz played it on occasion.

Well you know, you have to learn the lines.  It's part of getting better at chess.  But you don't have to have them all in your head when you sit down to play your first game with some system.  Just try to get familiar with the main outlines, then start playing.  You'll remember the lines that came up in your games a whole lot better than the ones that didn't, I can tell you that.

At your level, I would stay away from the Philidor, or indeed anything that didn't produce reasonably open play.  I agree that 4...d5 is a reasonable try against the Italian with 4. d3.  It isn't 100% sound, but it's close enough, and it produces an open position.  Another idea is 4...Be7 intending ...d5 later.  I also agree that the open defense is a good idea.  But the Petroff is fine too.

well, Active & Good For Black & No Queen Change & NoTheory is not easy to find for Black...
Maybe you can try the new-wave philidors such as 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 and only then ...e5 ?
it is :
- quite active (with many uclear systems featuring g4 and Bc4xf7) ;
- playable for Black and forcing a "three-result" game (both players can win or lose) ;
- certainly no early queen change thanks to 3...Nbd7
- becoming more and more theoretic due to Bauer's revealing book "Philidor Files" and the fact that may ...e5 players become attracted by this  system.

Maybe it is an idea ? to get a flavour of the positions, you can check threads with "Philidor Files" and "Shirov's Refutation". Enjoy !

Thanks for the comments. I've been playing for 1 year, but I've read a lot of books, and played a lot of games. So I'm going to have my first rate next week. It should be something around 1700.

You said that White can play Qe2. Does it exchange queens ? Because in this case, Petroff isn't for me :p I hate playing without queens

The Open Ruy lopez seems to be a goo idea, but here again, there are many lines :/

A big problem, also, (That's why I stopped to play 1...e5) is the "d3 Italian", after 1.e4 1...e5 2.Cf3 2... Cc6 3. Fc4 3... Cf6 4. d3. That's such a boring opening !

That's why The Petroff would be good, to avoid this. But If Petroff's defence exchanges queens...

I'm so confused 

well, the Petrov is certainly a sound opening. its drawish reputation, perhaps undeserved now, may come from the fact that :
1. it has been extensively used as a drawing weapon for Black in top GM tournaments, when a draw with Black is considered an achievement. But the play has become more lively now after 3. Nxe5
2. if White is not willing to fight, he can just play d3-Qe2 to achieve a lifeless position.
3. if Black doesn't want a draw when White plays 3. d4, his options are greatly restricted by the need to avoid the perpetual check variations with Nxf7. 

In your  case, a good option could be to play the Open Spanish or the spanish systems with b5-Bc5. You can check related threads for these systems.