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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Refutation of the Danish? (Read 21886 times)
parisestmagique
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Re: Refutation of the Danish?
Reply #20 - 05/30/07 at 07:57:25
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In this game 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 Qe7 4.cxd4 Qxe4+ 5.Be3 Nf6 6.Nc3 Bb4 7.Nf3 Nd5 8.Qd2 Qe7 9.Bc4 Nxe3 10.fxe3 c6 11.0-0 d5 12.Bd3 0-0 13.Rae1 f5 seems strong for Black, but White may try :
1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 Qe7 4.cxd4 Qxe4+ 5.Be2 !? and if Qxg2 6.Bf3 Qg6 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.Nge2 with Rg1 Bf4 etc. time is money !
  
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Re: Refutation of the Danish?
Reply #19 - 05/29/07 at 21:15:20
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MNb wrote on 05/29/07 at 20:37:15:
This way the Danish remains playable, despite of all fast food swallowing couch potatoes. In fact I would say, that their health might improve by playing the Danish more often.  Wink It would get their adrenaline running faster.


I tend to agree with MNb, but I would say that Danishes give a sugar rush which dissipates through the course of the game.  However, the stickiness of the frosting that accumulates on the pieces may provide nuisance compensation for the sugar low in the endgame.
  

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Re: Refutation of the Danish?
Reply #18 - 05/29/07 at 20:37:15
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Markovich wrote on 05/29/07 at 13:17:32:

Pardon me for intruding with some thoughts about chess.  The Danish fails rather simply in what has historically been regarded as its main line: 1. e4 e5  2. d4 exd4 3. c3 dxc3  4. Bc4 cxb2  5. Bxb2 Nc6  6. Nf3 Bb4+  7. Nc3 Nf6  8. Qc2 0-0  9. 0-0-0 d6  10. e5 Nfg4.  This used to be considered quite dangerous for Black, but it has been solved.  White's main problem is that 11. Nd5 Bc5  12. h4 fails to 12...Ncxe5! and if the exchange occurs on d6, Black's queen rook leaps into decisive action on c8.  That is my understanding, anyway.  There are certainly other good ways of playing against the Danish, but if there is an outright refutation, this is certainly it.  

On the other hand, if someone simply wants easy equality, it is much more clearly obtained by 3...d5 than by 3...Qe7.  Everyone knows about 3...d5 4. exd5 Qxd5  5. cxd4 Nc6  6. Nf3 Bg4  7. Nc3 Bb4  8. Be2 Bxf3  9. Bxf3 Qc4 =.

On a purely theoretical level JN may be right that the Danish just throws two pawns away, but in any given practical setting, it is unlikely to be so simple.   I only accept it in CC, never OTB.  

The problem with the traditional Danish move-order is that Black is given so much leeway.  For example he has 3...Qe7, not a bad move, not a new or necessarily winning one either, but annoying.  If someone wants to play the Danish, and this could make sense especially for young and improving players, better start with the Goering move order and then offer the second pawn, as recommended by MnB.  If you simply must play gambits, versus the Petroff, you can always play the Boden-Kieseritzky or even the Cochrane.


Theoretically the Danish is refuted by the variation Markovich gave indeed according to Müller/Voigt, though Markovich is a little imprecise:

1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Bc4 cxb2 5.Bxb2 Nc6 6.Nf3 Bb4+ 7.Nc3 Nf6 8.Qc2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d6 10.e5 Nfg4 and now either 11.h4 Ncxe5 12.Ng5 g6 13.Nce4 c6 (Harding) or 11.Nd5 Bc5 12.exd6 cxd6 13.h4 Bxf2 (Firnhaber). See for details Müller/Voigt's book.
Markovich is also right, saying that this is too complicated and risky to try OTB.

But he is wrong, saying that the Göring move order is to be preferred. While this avoids 3...Qe7, it gives Black extra possibilities (especially the sharp 4...Nf6 5.e5 Ne4). It also denies White some options, especially 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.cxd4 Nc6 6.Be3. This is equal, but avoids the far less interesting 6.Nf3 Bb4+ (or Bg4 7.Be2 Bb4+ 8.Nc3) 7.Nc3 Bg4 8.Be2 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Qc4 10.Bxc6+ bxc6.

The simplest way to obtain equality, I have stated this several times, is 3...Ne7 (or 4...Nge7 against Göring's move order). The idea of course is to get an improved version of the Capablanca line. Everybody also knows, that a knight is a better blockading piece thant the queen. Where the Capablanca line (3...d5) gives White the choice between a complicated middle game (6.Be3) and a dead draw (6.Nf3), 3...Ne7 preserves winning chances for Black.

Above all Markovich forgets to mention the version Alekhine preferred: 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3. Black is theoretically OK, but not more than that. This is what I would recommend to youngsters etcetera. This way the Danish remains playable, despite of all fast food swallowing couch potatoes. In fact I would say, that their health might improve by playing the Danish more often.  Wink It would get their adrenaline running faster.
  

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Re: Refutation of the Danish?
Reply #17 - 05/29/07 at 18:17:47
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When I say "refutation," I tend more to use the Eric Prie interpretation, rather than the "show me a clear advantage in all lines" interpretation.  If white is struggling for equality and black is forcibly directing the course of play, I consider that line to be unplayable and that effectively black has "refuted" white's system.

In accordance with conventional wisdom, I suppose I should concede 3..d5 is the better move.   (Oh, who am I to argue with "everyone?")  But I really like 3...Qe7, and I don't think it is too difficult to defend if he plays the "premature" 6...d5.   Grin
  

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Re: Refutation of the Danish?
Reply #16 - 05/29/07 at 13:40:52
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Markovich wrote on 05/29/07 at 13:17:32:
On the other hand, if someone simply wants easy equality, it is much more clearly obtained by 3...d5 than by 3...Qe7.  Everyone knows about 3...d5 4. exd5 Qxd5  5. cxd4 Nc6  6. Nf3 Bg4  7. Nc3 Bb4  8. Be2 Bxf3  9. Bxf3 Qc4 =.

On a purely theoretical level JN may be right that the Danish just throws two pawns away, but in any given practical setting, it is unlikely to be so simple.   I only accept it in CC, never OTB.  

The problem with the traditional Danish move-order is that Black is given so much leeway.  For example he has 3...Qe7, not a bad move, not a new or necessarily winning one either, but annoying.  If someone wants to play the Danish, and this could make sense especially for young and improving players, better start with the Goering move order and then offer the second pawn, as recommended by MnB.  If you simply must play gambits, versus the Petroff, you can always play the Boden-Kieseritzky or even the Cochrane.


Daives himself in  (Play 1 e4 e5 ) as well as Marin (Beating the Open Games) recommend 3...d5 as a safe way to eqaulize. 

I have to agree with Markovich here that is it quite easy to produce reams of analysis refuting a gambit in a message board. It is another to face it over the board unexpectantly. I always find it more pratical to decline espesically when I can get a comfortable position declining and resist the temptation to prove a point.
  

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Re: Refutation of the Danish?
Reply #15 - 05/29/07 at 13:17:32
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JN wrote on 05/29/07 at 06:58:43:


You are probably right! However, this does not make the Danish a sound opening. Nor does it solve the problem posted in the title of this thread.

Some people like to eat chips for breakfast, burgers for lunch, and candy all day long while doing nothing but watching TV. They "don't mind". They "like such simple plans". Yet, it’s a scientific fact that such a lifestyle is highly unsound, and that the mortality rate among fat fast-food-eating, TV-watching people is much higher than the average mortality rate in society.

So. If your ambition in life is to become as fat as you can - then by all means eat that fast-food. And if your ambition in chess is to throw a pawn away for very little compensation (if any) when you play with the white pieces - then by all means play that Danish gambit.


Wow.  I don't know where to begin.  The irony is overwhelming.  This is just too easy...

Thanks for the laugh.  You made my day?   

Whoops, actually I am writing this at night, due to my unsound lifestyle.

(Funny addition:  I am currently listening to "Hardening of the Arteries" off the album Hell Awaits by Slayer.)


Pardon me for intruding with some thoughts about chess.  The Danish fails rather simply in what has historically been regarded as its main line: 1. e4 e5  2. d4 exd4 3. c3 dxc3  4. Bc4 cxb2  5. Bxb2 Nc6  6. Nf3 Bb4+  7. Nc3 Nf6  8. Qc2 0-0  9. 0-0-0 d6  10. e5 Nfg5.  This used to be considered quite dangerous for Black, but it has been solved.  White's main problem is that 11. Nd5 Bc5  12. h4 fails to 12...Ncxe5! and if the exchange occurs on d6, Black's queen rook leaps into decisive action on c8.  That is my understanding, anyway.  There are certainly other good ways of playing against the Danish, but if there is an outright refutation, this is certainly it.   

On the other hand, if someone simply wants easy equality, it is much more clearly obtained by 3...d5 than by 3...Qe7.  Everyone knows about 3...d5 4. exd5 Qxd5  5. cxd4 Nc6  6. Nf3 Bg4  7. Nc3 Bb4  8. Be2 Bxf3  9. Bxf3 Qc4 =.

On a purely theoretical level JN may be right that the Danish just throws two pawns away, but in any given practical setting, it is unlikely to be so simple.   I only accept it in CC, never OTB.   

The problem with the traditional Danish move-order is that Black is given so much leeway.  For example he has 3...Qe7, not a bad move, not a new or necessarily winning one either, but annoying.  If someone wants to play the Danish, and this could make sense especially for young and improving players, better start with the Goering move order and then offer the second pawn, as recommended by MnB.  If you simply must play gambits, versus the Petroff, you can always play the Boden-Kieseritzky or even the Cochrane.
  

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Re: Refutation of the Danish?
Reply #14 - 05/29/07 at 11:41:46
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Some people like to eat chips for breakfast, burgers for lunch, and candy all day long while doing nothing but watching TV. They "don't mind". They "like such simple plans". Yet, it’s a scientific fact that such a lifestyle is highly unsound, and that the mortality rate among fat fast-food-eating, TV-watching people is much higher than the average mortality rate in society.


Actually, I think you'll find the mortality rate for both groups is exactly the same ...
  
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Re: Refutation of the Danish?
Reply #13 - 05/29/07 at 07:36:31
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JN wrote on 05/29/07 at 06:58:43:


You are probably right! However, this does not make the Danish a sound opening. Nor does it solve the problem posted in the title of this thread.

Some people like to eat chips for breakfast, burgers for lunch, and candy all day long while doing nothing but watching TV. They "don't mind". They "like such simple plans". Yet, it’s a scientific fact that such a lifestyle is highly unsound, and that the mortality rate among fat fast-food-eating, TV-watching people is much higher than the average mortality rate in society.

So. If your ambition in life is to become as fat as you can - then by all means eat that fast-food. And if your ambition in chess is to throw a pawn away for very little compensation (if any) when you play with the white pieces - then by all means play that Danish gambit.


Wow.  I don't know where to begin.  The irony is overwhelming.  This is just too easy...

Thanks for the laugh.  You made my day?  

Whoops, actually I am writing this at night, due to my unsound lifestyle.

(Funny addition:  I am currently listening to "Hardening of the Arteries" off the album Hell Awaits by Slayer.)
  

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Re: Refutation of the Danish?
Reply #12 - 05/29/07 at 06:58:43
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X
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I think a lot of gambit players wouldn't mind playing positions like this


MNb
Quote:
adherents of the Danish like such simple plans


You are probably right! However, this does not make the Danish a sound opening. Nor does it solve the problem posted in the title of this thread.

Some people like to eat chips for breakfast, burgers for lunch, and candy all day long while doing nothing but watching TV. They "don't mind". They "like such simple plans". Yet, it’s a scientific fact that such a lifestyle is highly unsound, and that the mortality rate among fat fast-food-eating, TV-watching people is much higher than the average mortality rate in society.

So. If your ambition in life is to become as fat as you can - then by all means eat that fast-food. And if your ambition in chess is to throw a pawn away for very little compensation (if any) when you play with the white pieces - then by all means play that Danish gambit.
  
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Re: Refutation of the Danish?
Reply #11 - 05/28/07 at 21:07:30
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MNb wrote on 05/28/07 at 20:35:37:
Before trusting silicon verdict, it is necessary to enter a few more moves. After 10...c6 my computer gives -0.81. After 15.Bxe4 it has dropped to -0.42. That is a good sign for the gambiteer.


Ah, so that's where all those one move assessments come from.  I'm still behind the times.  I am bit of a chess Luddite.  I have had several bad experiences with people accusing me of cheating with a computer in blitz on the Internet.  I like using Bookup and ChessBase Light though (but no engine! grrr!).

Sometimes I wish chess had an anti-computer rule like they have in professional shogi.  (I believe professional shogi players are prohibited from playing matches against computers.)
  

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Re: Refutation of the Danish?
Reply #10 - 05/28/07 at 20:35:37
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JN wrote on 05/28/07 at 13:49:44:
Right. However 10. - c6! followed by d5 -/+


Wrong. 
1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 Qe7 4.cxd4 Qxe4+ 5.Be3 Nf6 6.Nc3 Bb4 7.Nf3 Nd5 8.Qd2 Qe7 9.Bc4 Nxe3 10.fxe3 c6 11.0-0 d5 12.Bd3 0-0 13.Rae1 Be6 14.e4 (adherents of the Danish like such simple plans) dxe4 Goris-Held, DEU 1998, 15.Bxe4 with compensation thanks to the considerable lead in development and the pair of bishops (after evt 16.Ng5) or the weakness on Black's kingside (if Black prevents it with 15...h6).
See HgMan's appropriate thread in the General Section. Before trusting silicon verdict, it is necessary to enter a few more moves. After 10...c6 my computer gives -0.81. After 15.Bxe4 it has dropped to -0.42. That is a good sign for the gambiteer.
  

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Re: Refutation of the Danish?
Reply #9 - 05/28/07 at 20:09:21
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JN wrote on 05/28/07 at 13:49:44:
Right. However 10. - c6! followed by d5 -/+


I think there's a little more here to prove...  Smiley  Even if black gets in ...d5, white gets something of an automatic attack.  It may not be enough, but I certainly think white gets tangible compensation for the pawn.  Maybe it offers better winning chances than the other line, but I think Black's defensive task is more difficult.

I realize this is different (8...Nxe3 instead of 8...Qe7), and your line improves on this with the addition of ..c6, but a continuation in Davies' book is:

8.Qd2 Nxe3 9.fxe3 Qe7 10.Bd3 d5 11.0-0 Bxc3 12.bxc3 0-0 13.Rae1 f5 14.c4 dxc4 15.Bxc4 Kh8 16.e4 fxe4 17.Ne5 Bf5 18.g4 Nd7 19.Nf7+ Rxf7 20.Bxf7 Bxg4 21.Bd5 Nf6 22.Bxe4 Nxe4 23.Qf4 Be6 24.Rxe4

I may be wrong, but I think a lot of gambit players wouldn't mind playing positions like this.
  

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Re: Refutation of the Danish?
Reply #8 - 05/28/07 at 13:49:44
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Right. However 10. - c6! followed by d5 -/+
  
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Re: Refutation of the Danish?
Reply #7 - 05/28/07 at 10:12:30
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15.Qf4 and White has sufficient compensation.
  

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Re: Refutation of the Danish?
Reply #6 - 05/28/07 at 07:31:59
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4.cxd4 Qxe4 5.Be3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3 d5 7.Nf3 Bf5 and here I like 8.Qb3 Nc6, Mieses-Rubinstein, Lodz 1905, 9.Bb5 better than 8.Rc1. 
So refutation might be too optimistic.


Nah... instead of the premature 6. - d5 black should play 6. - Nf6 and transpose to the game Nogrady-Krivolapov, 1996:


1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 Qe7 4.cxd4 Qxe4+ 5.Be3 Nf6 6.Nc3 Bb4 7.Nf3 Nd5 8.Qd2 Qe7 9.Bc4 Nxe3 10.fxe3 d6 11.0-0 Bxc3 12.bxc3 0-0 13.e4 Be6 14.Bd3 Bg4 15.e5 Bxf3 16.Rxf3 dxe5 17.dxe5 Qxe5 18.Re1 Qc5+ 19.Kh1 Nc6 20.Rf5 Qd6 21.Rd5 Qh6 22.Qe2 Qf6 23.Rf5 Qd6 24.Bc4 g6 25.Rd5 Qf6 26.Rd7 Qxc3 27.Rxc7 Rad8 28.Rf1 Kh8 29.Bxf7 Qe5 30.Qf2 Rd2 31.Qh4 Qf5 32.Re1 Rxf7 33.Qxh7+ Kxh7 0-1
  
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