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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What to do if you cant decide on an opening? (Read 12639 times)
TopNotch
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Re: What to do if you cant decide on an opening?
Reply #30 - 06/03/07 at 16:14:42
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Eladar wrote on 06/03/07 at 03:08:00:
I've been playing about 3 months now.  I only play at FICS and my blitz (usually 10,0) rating is now bouncing in the low to mid 900's, which is better than it was 2 months ago. Roll Eyes  My standard rating is 1100, but I don't play many standard games.

What I notice is that there are alot of people at my level who open e4 and are looking for early traps.  They come out with their bishop, knight and queen and try to mount an attack.  I, on the other hand, am trying to play aggressively with an eye to developing my pieces and castling.  In my successful games I have avoided the traps, usually traded some pieces and end up with a well developed field while the other guy is sitting there with his pieces behind a wall of unmoved pawns.

I attribute this in large part of my white opening which is all about development.  I know I often end up with closed games without alot of exciting tactical play, but it has taught me to get my pieces out on the board.  From what I've read, this is the way I should be playing.

Edit:

I'm so excited, I just beat the guy who suggested I get Personal Chess Trainer.  He's a 1200 and I played a great game.  I used many of thing things I learned from the trainer, such as a bishop sacrifice to open up the castled king, then took a pawn to have it replace by a rook so I can safely take a piece the pawn was supporting.  That forced him to give up his queen.  I think that was the best game I have played. Grin  


Good for you, and wlecome to the wild and wonderful world of combinations.

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Re: What to do if you cant decide on an opening?
Reply #29 - 06/03/07 at 03:08:00
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I've been playing about 3 months now.  I only play at FICS and my blitz (usually 10,0) rating is now bouncing in the low to mid 900's, which is better than it was 2 months ago. Roll Eyes  My standard rating is 1100, but I don't play many standard games.

What I notice is that there are alot of people at my level who open e4 and are looking for early traps.  They come out with their bishop, knight and queen and try to mount an attack.  I, on the other hand, am trying to play aggressively with an eye to developing my pieces and castling.  In my successful games I have avoided the traps, usually traded some pieces and end up with a well developed field while the other guy is sitting there with his pieces behind a wall of unmoved pawns.

I attribute this in large part of my white opening which is all about development.  I know I often end up with closed games without alot of exciting tactical play, but it has taught me to get my pieces out on the board.  From what I've read, this is the way I should be playing.

Edit:

I'm so excited, I just beat the guy who suggested I get Personal Chess Trainer.  He's a 1200 and I played a great game.  I used many of thing things I learned from the trainer, such as a bishop sacrifice to open up the castled king, then took a pawn to have it replace by a rook so I can safely take a piece the pawn was supporting.  That forced him to give up his queen.  I think that was the best game I have played. Grin   
  
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Re: What to do if you cant decide on an opening?
Reply #28 - 06/02/07 at 18:28:38
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I've taught various levels of students, and have studied the openings for myself.  For most players, simply following the basic principles (control the center, develop pieces actively and democratically, protect the king, and play active rather than passive chess) should be enough.

If this isn't enough, the problem is most likely with defects in your own play, especially tactically.  Once you reach a certain level (you'll know it by being less successful in finding active plans after about 7-10 moves), then you may want to consult books, players, and coaches.

My advice is therefore virtually the opposite of those who say chess education should be uniform.  Remember why you play the game and develop your own plans based on your goals.
  
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MNb
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Re: What to do if you cant decide on an opening?
Reply #27 - 06/01/07 at 21:10:33
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No X, you don't. I had this in mind:

" I noticed there were some kids that were coached to play the Evan's Gambit or Giuoco Pianissimo in the scholastic tournaments.  A pair of kids coached similarly would usually blitz through the first several moves uncritically."

I find this horrible, these kids really don't know why they are playing their moves, except that they are in the books.

Willempie, I am flattered, but what insight are you talking about?
I tried to explain, what the purpose of studying openings should be, which is not what you wrote about. In the end these openings will form a repertoire, won't they? The question, if one must chose an opening to aim at certain types of middle game positions, or master these to get the most benefit of your repertoire is basically a chicken/egg problem.  Wink
  

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Re: What to do if you cant decide on an opening?
Reply #26 - 06/01/07 at 05:35:05
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MNb wrote on 06/01/07 at 02:10:10:
A lot of stuff

A very nice insight, but it doesnt say anything about a having/creating a repertoire. Rather you seem to agree that not having one may be better Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: What to do if you cant decide on an opening?
Reply #25 - 06/01/07 at 03:18:03
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MNb wrote on 06/01/07 at 02:10:10:
All in all - and that is an answer to X as well - avoid learning long move sequences by heart by all means. It just does not make sense.


I hope I don't come across as promoting the approach of rote memorization.  I think a lot of my improvement in the class ranks resulted from playing through several thematic games in the openings I played.  This was especially important in the 1200-1500 range.  I didn't have that many opening books at the time, and I would often play through whatever games I could find revelant to my opening choices.  As I mentioned earlier, I played through several games in an old 1975 Chess Player yearbook, especially to cover openings that were not in the books I had.  There was no written text, just Informator symbols.  However, I think the work I put into following the course of the games paid off.  For one thing, without written text I was forced to think critically about the moves on my own.  It was also important that the games were complete and covered typical middlegames and endgames.  Looking back, I think the time I spent reading through the dense monographs of Burgess' was less productive, since so many of the variations were cut short and it was harder to understand the moves in the recommended variations (e.g., why is this +/= and the other line =?).  I am completely against uncritical rote memorization.  I think one should learn the opening by playing through thematic games that illustrate typical plans.  I did not play the Dragon by rote memorization, and often had to work very hard when I did not find the right moves.  A lot of my success in this opening was a result of being familiar with the typical plans and tactics.  In fact, I am trying to move away from the Dragon these days, considering how theoretical the opening is getting.  I find rote memorization useless; if I don't understand the variations, I'll easily forget them and my time was wasted.  (Also playing moves you don't understand tends not to work very well.)  If I remember the ideas, I can always come back to them, even I forget specific variations.  I hope I have clarified myself.
  

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Re: What to do if you cant decide on an opening?
Reply #24 - 06/01/07 at 02:10:10
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No offence intended, Trevor, but your experiences look irrelevant to me. The reason can be found in TopNotch' post. Even on the highest level games are usually decided in the middlegame stage. Exactly there the difference between short and long time controls is the biggest. For blitz things like quick decision making, quick eye for simple tactics are decisive. At long time controls developing plans, accurate calculating and correct evaluations count.
So in blitz it does not really matter, which openings you play. For developing players it does at long time controls. For instance, I agree completely with Markovich, that such players should avoid playing the Pirc as Black. In fact I recommend a mixture of Markovich' and TopNotch' approach. It is very useful, almost mandatory to include the Open Games either as White or as Black or both. The rest can be thematical, eg playing with or against (or both) the isolated queen's pawn, heading for the minority attack or the variations mentioned by TopNotch.
Willempie actually is not contradicting my point. I enjoy this quote: "The pathetic spectacle of someone playing the first twenty-five moves like a grandmaster and the next ten like a gorilla is becoming quite common nowadays." Botterill in Open Gambits, 1985. Aspiring "deep understanding" of openings is futile below ELO 2000.
The relevance of studying openings on this low level (mine, actually) is another. In fact evaluations like +=, =, =+ and unclear have little meaning for me. +- and -+ do, of course. My goal in the opening is simply to get a reasonable, comfortable starting position for the ensuing middle game. So, in the time that I played the Danish Gambit and Morra Gambit, I also had to study the theory of the isolated centre pawn - because of 1.e4 e5 (c5) 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 d5. That is exactly the link TopNotch was writing about.
Of course this all will be fruitless, if the study of tactics is neglected. TopNotch is completely right about that. Again, such a study cannot stand on itself. After all, winning combinations usually occur in superior positions. To get these, one needs some understanding of positional play (yes, that even applies to most gambit openings). Such play is easier from a comfortable position after 10-12 moves. To get this one must know what variations to play.
In the meantime don't forget to study some basic endgames as well. It feels rotten, to play a good game, see and play a nice combination and then spoil your decisive advantage, because you don't know how to handle the resulting endgame.
With such an integrated approach one avoids jojo games like described by Trevor. One does not avoid overlooking mates in one though, an experience I seem to share with Willempie - of course almost always on the receiving side.

My solution to solve the "French problem" (it was a problem for me in the 80-s) was quite different. I did not buy a half dozen opening books; I studied typical middle game positions. The best sources then available were annotated games by strong players. Then I chose some variations - actually not the main lines - that enabled me to apply this new knowledge. Within a couple of months I began to enjoy meeting 1...e6.
A solution I never considered, but could have before spending time on these middle game positions, was just playing 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.c4. Once again, chosing this line only makes sense when combined with a study of the isolated centre pawn.

Trevor, I am amazed, that you knew when you left opening theory. I hardly ever do. Maybe it is because I have a bad memory. Studying openings just to get your opponents caught in a cheap trap is a waste of time. First of all it hardly happens, that I can set a trap from the books; when I can, my opponents usually do not fall for them.
All in all - and that is an answer to X as well - avoid learning long move sequences by heart by all means. It just does not make sense.
  

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Re: What to do if you cant decide on an opening?
Reply #23 - 05/31/07 at 22:20:42
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MNb wrote on 05/31/07 at 21:22:19:
Are these experiences from blitz chess? If yes, it is not very relevant, as theoretical opening knowledge and understanding hardly is an important factor.


I play blitz about 2/3 of the time, but I try to play 40 minutes whenever I have the time.  I haven't found much of a difference at longer time controls either, as most opponents seem go out of book quickly.  Yesterday, however in a 40 min/ea game, I was lucky enough that my opponent went down a line that I knew from the Advance Variation of the French.  If I remember correctly it was on the 13th move he went out of book.  That move he played was a poor one (when I checked Shredder after the game it gave me -+), but I couldn't find the best moves and within a half dozen moves it was even, within a half dozen more my opponent was clearly better.  That happens all the time at my level.  Yes opening traps can win or lose games, but otherwise advantages from the opening rarely last long.

Basing it on the original poster stating that he switched to 1. f4 a couple weeks ago and now is moving to 1. nf3, my suspicion is that he must be playing a lot of games and therefore likely using faster time controls.
  
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Re: What to do if you cant decide on an opening?
Reply #22 - 05/31/07 at 22:20:15
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MNb wrote on 05/31/07 at 21:22:19:
Are these experiences from blitz chess? If yes, it is not very relevant, as theoretical opening knowledge and understanding hardly is an important factor.

It doesnt really matter, point is that many players who are trying to improve their game think they need to establish a repertoire. I completely disagree with that. Thing is that like me you wont have a clue about which openings are right for you and whatever number of books you read won't change that. You just have to play them to find out. I know too many "theoreticians" at my level to be impressed by any level of "deep" understanding. I now regularly crush guys in "their" openings, even players rated way above me (of course I often oversee my queen being en prise, which keeps my rating low Grin).

In short I think you wont improve if you dont think for yourself from the start and by analysing learn from your mistakes. 

An added "bonus" is that I think you will best improve by playing against better players. In this case they will know the theory and you usually dont, so that in effect you will be playing against a better player during the opening than he really is. That way you'll learn much more from your games. And whatever happens games are usually not decided in the opening anyway...
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: What to do if you cant decide on an opening?
Reply #21 - 05/31/07 at 21:50:58
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Chess development, especially in the formative years, should be uniform. By that I mean a 1200-1500 rated player with the Opening Knowledge of a 2300, but no understanding of middlegame technique or how to convert a material or positional adavantage into a win is counter productive.

Your Opening play should be equal at least in part to your middle and endgame play, otherwise symbols such as =/+ and +/= +/- are meaningless.

Link your opening study to the middle and endgame positions that frequently occur from that opening. That's why I suggested a thematic approach to opening study, at least in the beginning, of course there is nothing wrong with the 'play the open games' approach as suggested by others. In fact both these methods are valid and it often depends on the strengths and weaknessess of the student in question as to which approach to adopt. 

For players in the 1200-1500 bracket, I would offer one further bit of advice, that is to make a careful study of common tactical themes and motifs, as proficiency in this area more than any other will reap great rewards.

Toppy Smiley

 
  

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Re: What to do if you cant decide on an opening?
Reply #20 - 05/31/07 at 21:22:19
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Are these experiences from blitz chess? If yes, it is not very relevant, as theoretical opening knowledge and understanding hardly is an important factor.
  

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Re: What to do if you cant decide on an opening?
Reply #19 - 05/31/07 at 20:23:57
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Willempie wrote on 05/31/07 at 08:29:28:
Forget about a repertoire. If today you feel like playing 1.e4 just do so and if you feel like playing 1.Nf3 tomorrow what's the problem in playing it then?

I have tried to create a repertoire for years, but always found something which I disliked and then started looking elsewhere only to find out some other thing I disliked. Now I just stopped having one. Did wonders for my improvement and enjoyment.


I agree 100% with Willempie.  Now I should say first that I am a lowly 1500 - 1550 (blitz) player and that I have only been playing chess for about 2 years.  While I do think that there is merit to saying that you should choose an opening and stick to it as it is pretty useless to study an opening for a couple months and then abandon it for a different one, because you think it will be the "magic" formula.  But, so far I have found little benefit from studying the opening and don't feel that will change until I break 2000 (which I may never do).  Of course if you are above 2000 then my advice will be useless (and if you are below 2000 then it might be just as useless), but seeing as I don't know your rating I can only speak from my own experience and from seeing many other players who are sub 1500 (in many cases sub 1200) and who spend a lot of time trying to find and perfect an opening repertoire. 

The original poster said that he abandoned 1. e4 because of awful results against the French.  I can certainly relate to that.  When I started playing I used exclusively 1. e4 and responded to the king pawn with the Scandinavian.  After about a year of play I was completely terrified of the French.  I looked at my results (which I kept track of in a database) and sure enough my results against the French were pathetic, but I also noticed that my results against the Scandinavian were almost 100%.  I knew that I had studied the White side of the Scandinavian no more than the French, so I realized that my results were probably so much better because I had more experience with the Scandinavian as I played it from both sides.  My solution to my French Defence problem?  Play the French with the Black pieces.  So I threw myself into playing the black side of the French, bought a half dozen books and achieved good results.  Best of all, after a couple of months I loved facing the French with White.  I looked at my games and realized that 95% of the time while playing black, my opponents deviated from my books within 3 to 5 moves, so my studying hadn't been as benificial as actually playing was.  I decided to start playing 1...e5 and then after that the Sicilian, in both cases without actually devoting anytime to study (other then looking up where I or my opponent went wrong after most games).  I now try to play every defence as Black, and the truth is in the last 6 months I have studied no theory.  In the last month I have responded to 1. e4 with d6 about a half dozen times and I think I have won every game, but I wouldn't say that I have been playing the Pirc, as I am basically "out of book" on the second move.  The same goes for the Alekhine which I have tried a couple times.  The best thing is that I am my results have improved more since I decide to just play what ever I feel like.  My rating had increased slowly to about 1200 in the first year and half, but in the last 6 months it has increased to 1530.

Yes, there is that big fear that if you don't know the theory you will sometimes be worse right out of the opening, but no amount of study I could ever do will completely safeguard against that (after all Shirov lost a game to Wells last year in only 13 moves! in a Trompowsky) and I have managed to come back and win or draw many games despite being down a piece early (similarly I have lost games despite being up a piece early).

When I do eventually go back to studying openings again in the future, my hope is to use only books like Watson's 2 vol Mastering the Chess Openings or New In Chess' 2 vol "Chess Opening Essentials" (which I have yet to see in North America) and to continue playing any opening in which I feel comfortable with.  If I do ever get to "2000" then I imagine I will need to specialize, but until then I don't think it would benefit my chess development.
  
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Re: What to do if you cant decide on an opening?
Reply #18 - 05/31/07 at 11:05:29
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Meat wrote on 05/31/07 at 10:43:03:
I'm beginning to think about this "Play the open games under 2000" recommendation...

So I've played 1. e4 when I started chess but soon switched to 1. d4. As black I've played about just about every (sound) defence there is to e4 (stuck with the Sicilian for some time now) and mostly the KID against d4.

This thread gave me the impression that I may not have studied and played the open games enough. Since I've formed my repertoire with 1.d4, the Sveshnikov and the KID I've improved a lot, but still haven't reached the magical 2000 points.

So I wonder: How do I know I have problems in the open games (positions) and what should I do about it?
After all I want to reach 2000 and I'm unsure what to study. Engames, Open positions, closed positions, Openings, Tactics...?!


Take a look at your games. Why do you win games and more importantly why do you lose games? At what stage do you make mistakes? In what kind of positions?

Another way would be to do the tests and follow the advices in Khmelnitsky's "Chess Exam And Training Guide: Rate Yourself And Learn How To Improve".
  

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Re: What to do if you cant decide on an opening?
Reply #17 - 05/31/07 at 10:43:03
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I'm beginning to think about this "Play the open games under 2000" recommendation...

So I've played 1. e4 when I started chess but soon switched to 1. d4. As black I've played about just about every (sound) defence there is to e4 (stuck with the Sicilian for some time now) and mostly the KID against d4.

This thread gave me the impression that I may not have studied and played the open games enough. Since I've formed my repertoire with 1.d4, the Sveshnikov and the KID I've improved a lot, but still haven't reached the magical 2000 points.

So I wonder: How do I know I have problems in the open games (positions) and what should I do about it?
After all I want to reach 2000 and I'm unsure what to study. Engames, Open positions, closed positions, Openings, Tactics...?!
  
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Re: What to do if you cant decide on an opening?
Reply #16 - 05/31/07 at 08:29:28
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Forget about a repertoire. If today you feel like playing 1.e4 just do so and if you feel like playing 1.Nf3 tomorrow what's the problem in playing it then?

I have tried to create a repertoire for years, but always found something which I disliked and then started looking elsewhere only to find out some other thing I disliked. Now I just stopped having one. Did wonders for my improvement and enjoyment.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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