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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Favorite Variations that just don't score well (Read 12922 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #31 - 06/19/07 at 22:01:43
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Thanks kylemeister!

I know of Dvoretsky's comment, and i think you have the right book.  I didn't know that he was quoting from someone earlier.  Some of the best advice is old advice.
  
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #30 - 06/18/07 at 19:34:40
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There was such a line about needing to have your own opening theory in one of the Dvoretsky books (I believe it was, plausibly enough, "Opening Preparation").  Maybe it was a quote from Botvinnik or somebody, I can't remember clearly.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #29 - 06/18/07 at 18:14:17
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I have a friend (an IM) who says that you can't claim to be a master unless you create your own chess theory.  That is, you have to come up with new moves occasionally, and always be opinionated about lines.   

A master has every right, and perhaps even a duty to play lines that theory considers dubious.  That is because the master will have analysed these lines himself and come to the conclusion that these lines are either misevaluated or are rich enough to play anyway.

I've never been one to say that knowing too much is a bad thing.  Rather, if I am stuck playing only theoretical moves without really understanding the positions, then I need to get out and play more.  That is, I need to learn more about openings.

Both of these points go back to my blaming myself instead of the opening for any let-downs.   I will probably continue to play and over-analyse my opening repertoire, but reserve the right to gripe when chess seems unfair. Tongue
  
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Willempie
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #28 - 06/18/07 at 15:02:36
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chk wrote on 06/18/07 at 10:21:04:
OK, I have to admit that previous experience with the Sicilian (with either colour) helps a lot. I can see that as I nowadays follow the exact opposite path than yours, i.e. I start to re-examine the Open Sicilian as White and my 'Black' experience with the defence helps more than any other source of knowledge. Wink

However, a word of warning in case you are really planning to adopt the Najdorf. Spend some time to study the minimum required theory regarding 6. Bg5 (even if you follow the 'calmer' classical approach, i.e. 6. .. e6 & 7. .. Be7), since play is as sharp as it gets and just a good positional feeling is not enough.

I know, I am playing this with white Grin
Going through that chapter in experts can make your head hurt. Yet when I combined it with going through games in the Bg5 lines I got the hang of it a little.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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chk
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #27 - 06/18/07 at 10:21:04
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OK, I have to admit that previous experience with the Sicilian (with either colour) helps a lot. I can see that as I nowadays follow the exact opposite path than yours, i.e. I start to re-examine the Open Sicilian as White and my 'Black' experience with the defence helps more than any other source of knowledge. Wink

However, a word of warning in case you are really planning to adopt the Najdorf. Spend some time to study the minimum required theory regarding 6. Bg5 (even if you follow the 'calmer' classical approach, i.e. 6. .. e6 & 7. .. Be7), since play is as sharp as it gets and just a good positional feeling is not enough.
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #26 - 06/18/07 at 08:36:16
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chk wrote on 06/18/07 at 08:09:56:
Regarding the Najdorf I'll have to agree with TopNotch (and I'm not obsessed with opening theory  Wink).

Moreover, regarding your comment: Quote:
Eg playing through games with the same pawn structure
:

Playing the Najdorf as White demands you to know more or less 2 types of positions, and that is usually the d6/e6 and the d6/e5 centres.

Playing the Najdorf as Black demands you to know how to counter about 6-7 different set-ups (positional ones, opposite castling, Bishops here or there). You will also have the dilemma depending on White's 6th move on whether to prefer a Dragon, a Scheveningen or a Classical set-up, instead of a 'pure' Najdorf approach. The situation gets even worse if you add the different positions you need to know to cope with the Anti-Sicilians.

I am not disagreeing with your observations, I just dont think you would need that much theory to start playing it. My approach so far has worked with the Taimanov and the Nimzo for example, which though tactically less demanding are also not too shallow on the pawn structures. Plus I have been going through quite some games from a white attacking perspective.
Quote:

I suppose most of the above hold for the Dragon too, except maybe from the dilemma regarding Black's optimum set-up after White's 6th move: You will have to stick to the same ol' fianchetto!  Tongue

I like the dragon very much... with white Cool
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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chk
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #25 - 06/18/07 at 08:09:56
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Regarding the Najdorf I'll have to agree with TopNotch (and I'm not obsessed with opening theory  Wink).

Moreover, regarding your comment: Quote:
Eg playing through games with the same pawn structure
:

Playing the Najdorf as White demands you to know more or less 2 types of positions, and that is usually the d6/e6 and the d6/e5 centres.

Playing the Najdorf as Black demands you to know how to counter about 6-7 different set-ups (positional ones, opposite castling, Bishops here or there). You will also have the dilemma depending on White's 6th move on whether to prefer a Dragon, a Scheveningen or a Classical set-up, instead of a 'pure' Najdorf approach. The situation gets even worse if you add the different positions you need to know to cope with the Anti-Sicilians.

I suppose most of the above hold for the Dragon too, except maybe from the dilemma regarding Black's optimum set-up after White's 6th move: You will have to stick to the same ol' fianchetto!  Tongue
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #24 - 06/18/07 at 07:14:34
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TopNotch wrote on 06/17/07 at 23:46:37:
Willempie wrote on 06/15/07 at 12:38:37:
Quit studying opening lines. Wink
That may sound as a bad joke, but what I mean is that apparently you have good results when you know you have to do the work on the board (like with your benoni), but have a problem when you are in a position of theoretical strength. So maybe the best solution is to forget about delving deep into a repertoire, but take a more superficial approach and focus more on other areas. Eg playing through games with the same pawn structure.


Good advice unless you play the Dragon or Najdorf.

Tops Smiley

I am not sure about that so I am now going to apply it to the latter.
After all it cant be more complex than playing it with white Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #23 - 06/18/07 at 04:11:16
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Quote:

That is bizarre? Maybe you only think you have outplayed them but in truth they have seen farther than you have.

For example whenever I beat a weaker from the black side of a KID they always squeal and protest they were better, and often Fritz would agree, but Mate is mate. 

Coming to think of it, just about any KID position put on Fritz is evaluated as better for White, and thats just how I like it. Let White have his false sense of security.  Wink

Toppy Smiley   


Not according to the computer, and often my opponent in post-mortem. Though some opponents do the whole "I was winning the whole time" thing, most comment that they were probably worse. Very odd, probably because I rarely play in over the board tournaments (a few a year) and just need more experience or something.  Undecided

Edit: I just took out a chunk because I accidentally included part that was meant for another thread.  Embarrassed
« Last Edit: 06/18/07 at 06:24:11 by JonHecht »  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #22 - 06/18/07 at 02:53:18
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TopNotch, 

The White side of the KID is one of the few openings I feel comfortable with even against IMs.  (I've never faced a GM in a serious game in the KID, but I did play GM Becerra once online in a blitz tournament and surprised him with an old variation in the Mar del Plata (9.Ne1) line.  He went on to outplay me after losing an exchange and the light-squared bishop.  I know I scared him, but he won the point.)

I do like to defend the side of truth and justice, which is exactly why I like the White side of the KID.  I know the computers just don't get the KID, but I spent quite a bit of time studying it when I was playing regularly.

You're exactly right about weaker players complaining afterwards that they were winning (or drawing) in totally lost positions even though they didn't know it.  Some of my favorite wins have been from positions that my opponents strove for.

I'm somewhere in mid-table I guess.  I can do unto others, but then the really big fish in the pond do the same unto me.
  
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #21 - 06/17/07 at 23:46:37
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Willempie wrote on 06/15/07 at 12:38:37:
Quit studying opening lines. Wink
That may sound as a bad joke, but what I mean is that apparently you have good results when you know you have to do the work on the board (like with your benoni), but have a problem when you are in a position of theoretical strength. So maybe the best solution is to forget about delving deep into a repertoire, but take a more superficial approach and focus more on other areas. Eg playing through games with the same pawn structure.


Good advice unless you play the Dragon or Najdorf.

Tops Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #20 - 06/17/07 at 23:45:25
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JonHecht wrote on 06/17/07 at 02:09:27:
"but the higher level players tend to reach a theoretically inferior position and still outplay me."

Which is why they are higher rated. For it is bizarre. Against higher rated players I usually reach horrible positions out of the opening, then slowly outplay them positionally to get a slightly better position from my horrible position then I make a massive blunder and lose. This is how nearly all my games against higher rated players go.  Undecided


That is bizarre? Maybe you only think you have outplayed them but in truth they have seen farther than you have.

For example whenever I beat a weaker from the black side of a KID they always squeal and protest they were better, and often Fritz would agree, but Mate is mate. 

Coming to think of it, just about any KID position put on Fritz is evaluated as better for White, and thats just how I like it. Let White have his false sense of security.  Wink

Toppy Smiley   
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #19 - 06/17/07 at 14:20:08
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Heartily agree with Willempie.

Relax re: opening theory a little. Play through plenty of high quality games (GMs minimum, not IMs) in those variations to get ideas how to actually play the positions. 

Then come back to theory books. 

eg
French - Korchnoi, Uhlmann, assorted Armenians. 
KID: Nunn, Kasparov, Bronstein, Golubev, Gallagher, Radj, whomever
Benoni: Stein, Tal etc


As JonHecht said - yes the higher rated players will outplay you from slightly inferior positions, because they are better. What does 'better' mean  in practice? They have a greater understanding of a wider range of positions. Alternatively call it the vague 'experience', the more precise 'greater pattern recognition' or what have you.


My pet 'bad' variation. Played the budapest as a kid. Got a duff book on it, the blurb made it seem interesting -  was 11 or 12 and didnt know better. Finally my mum, who cant play (can set up the pieces tho) suggested that I stop playing whatever I was playing. Mum knows best, took up KID, never looked back.

So advice all you boys and girls - ask mother.


  
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #18 - 06/17/07 at 02:09:27
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"but the higher level players tend to reach a theoretically inferior position and still outplay me."

Which is why they are higher rated. For it is bizarre. Against higher rated players I usually reach horrible positions out of the opening, then slowly outplay them positionally to get a slightly better position from my horrible position then I make a massive blunder and lose. This is how nearly all my games against higher rated players go.  Undecided
  
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #17 - 06/17/07 at 01:05:26
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Willempie, 

I came to the same conclusion that you have about trying to be too theoretical.  When i play strong players who play into my "theory" I just can't help myself; I just have to play the line I think is best.

Therein lies the heart of my problem:  I like to play the "best" lines, even if they don't give the best practical results.

One of my most common opponents (a national master) plays 1.e4 c5 2.Nh3 (or 1...e6 2.Nh3) and still manages to win.  His opponents, myself included, get the better position out of the opening, but he is able to outplay us in the middlegame because he has specific attacking plans that he has worked out at home.

So against this player, I tend to lose from "better" positions.  There's really no point in spending hours upon hours working out how to beat the opening in cases like this, but I still tend to blame the opening rather than the resulting middlegame positions.

I can outplay opponents of similar strength if they don't respect the opening, but the higher level players tend to reach a theoretically inferior position and still outplay me.  My favorite variations aren't really letting me down so much as I am letting them down.

That's depressing. Embarrassed
  
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