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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Favorite Variations that just don't score well (Read 12920 times)
Willempie
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #16 - 06/15/07 at 12:38:37
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Quit studying opening lines. Wink
That may sound as a bad joke, but what I mean is that apparently you have good results when you know you have to do the work on the board (like with your benoni), but have a problem when you are in a position of theoretical strength. So maybe the best solution is to forget about delving deep into a repertoire, but take a more superficial approach and focus more on other areas. Eg playing through games with the same pawn structure.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #15 - 06/15/07 at 12:15:13
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Bravehop, 

I had the same issue when I played the Modern Benoni as Black.  I always felt that I was cheating somehow because I knew the opening was inferior to others and yet I never lost a serious game with it.  (I beat several players who were more than 300 rating points above me with it.)

I'm not sorry I gave it up, but I am even more glad that I studied it as Black.  The opening has had a minor revival and my studies have helped me to cope with some very difficult opponents because I knew where the problems lie.   

Perhaps the difficulty I have with my repertoire is that it's geared for playing against strong opponents (>2300 USCF), and those opponents are either wily enough to avoid my main lines or seem to understand the opening better than I do.

My main problems with my openings usually show up in main lines in which an opponent has played a theoretically sub-optimal move that I didn't study thoroughly enough beforehand.  My opponent plays well and gets a better position than he should have.   

I often blame myself for not taking advantage of my opponent's mistakes.

You can probably spot the mistake in my thinking already:

I talk about "sub-optimal" and what my opponent "should have" gotten out of the opening.  I really do believe in right and wrong and sometimes get caught trying to punish an opponent for playing incorrectly.  This is natural in chess, but after a certain level, the relative values of right and wrong are so blurry that trying to figure out what is best is a quixotic pursuit.

Strong opponents who know me will often play theoretically dubious moves in order to lure me into pushing too hard.   I don't really know what the remedy is.
  
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bravehoptoad
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #14 - 06/15/07 at 03:11:27
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I have a similar but opposite problem.  I have a couple lines that I score very well with, but don't like to play.

On the black side of the Gruenfeld, I've played 8 tournament games at classical time controls.  My score is 7 1/2.  The problems are that it's a huge pain to prepare and many club players "move order" their way out of it, so you have to have other defences to d4 prepared anyway.  I started feeling that keeping up with it was hurting my other openings.   

Also, while its fun to play the Exchange Gruenfeld, the other variations are positions I hate, despite my good score with them.  My score with the Catalan is pretty good, too, but if I ever have to play another Catalan I think I'll scream.   

By analogy, I've broken up with some amazing, funny, beautiful women who were probably all much too good for me.   
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #13 - 06/13/07 at 18:20:33
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Markovich wrote on 06/13/07 at 16:56:44:
It appears to be my curse, not necessarily that my favored systems don't score well, but that they are outright refuted by theoretical developments. ...


By analogy, my wife and I find that whenever we have a restaurant that we really like, it closes.



I have exactly the same frustrations.  I started out playing both sides of the Slav at a time when no top GM played it regularly.  Then it became the most popular opening in chess (at least so it seemed) and lines were being created, refuted, resuscitated, and killed off again in the span of a few months.  There was no way I could keep up unless I decided to become a chess professional.


On the plus side, if I had decided to become a chess professional, I wouldn't have noticed our favorite restaurants closing because my wife would have left me!

I think I'll keep my wife, and keep on complaining about chess.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #12 - 06/13/07 at 16:56:44
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It appears to be my curse, not necessarily that my favored systems don't score well, but that they are outright refuted by theoretical developments. I specialized in the Open Defense, but then it was "refuted" by 9. Nbd2 and Ng5.  It's now finally been rehabilitated, but I've forgotten all my lines and can't quite convince myself to take it up again.  I still have my old notes but they're somewhat out of date.   

Then for a long time I played the Schliemann, but it was refuted by 9. Nxa7! in the main line.   

For years I loved 4. a3 versus the Nimzo, followed by an early e3, and I had great results with it, but it's been dead since Karpov produced key ideas in his games with Yusupov.  There was a glimmer of hope with 4. a3 Bxc3+  5. bxc3 c5  6. e3 Nc6  7. Bd3 0-0  8. Ne2 b6  9. e4 Ne8  10. 0-0 f5  11. d5!? and I decided to take this up again, but then that was beaten back by 11...exd5.   

I've been studying Alekhine's for a couple of years and playing it with good success, but now I can't find an answer to the Four Pawns attack.

By analogy, my wife and I find that whenever we have a restaurant that we really like, it closes.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
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Willempie
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #11 - 06/13/07 at 11:00:10
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/11/07 at 11:58:35:
PS: Re my mixed results in the Taimanov:  I'll be glad to share those thoughts, but I'm not sure yet whether to put them in as part of this thread or take that discussion over to the Taimanov section and just refer to the url here.  It will take some time to get some of my games together.

I suggest opening a new thread in the open-sic section. I started playing it myself and would love to chime in on analysis of practical games. 

As to yourself I think that it may be very helpful to have other people who dont know you give comments. Maybe that way you'll find a common wrong mode of thought in the handling of your openings.

BtW I think it is very helpful with the Taimanov to also look at some games in related lines like the Schevy and Winawer.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #10 - 06/12/07 at 19:53:28
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Girkassa wrote on 06/12/07 at 12:26:47:
For some time, I was scoring badly with the Nimzo Indian, but when I tried to find the reason for it, looking at my opponent's ratings was an answer good enough...


Yes, the rating performance is the real indicator, not the % score. Notable that Kaufmann's repetoire book goes by this method.
  
Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #9 - 06/12/07 at 12:26:47
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Well, we all have some of those openings which we score badly with without really knowing why, don't we? The reasons could be many...

Maybe we haven't studied the opening enough.
Maybe we have only played it against strong players.
Maybe we blundered away a couple of games, where the opening wasn't really the problem.
Maybe the opening just doesn't suit our style.
Or maybe the opening is just bad.

In the two latter cases, the solution is obviously to stop playing that opening; in the other cases, it's not the opening itself that should be blamed. For some time, I was scoring badly with the Nimzo Indian, but when I tried to find the reason for it, looking at my opponent's ratings was an answer good enough...
  
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #8 - 06/11/07 at 18:33:17
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Well for me it's the KIA which I have finally weeded out of my Repetoire and the Rossolimo. Whilst the latter is fine for others, it doesn't score well for me. I play it with Bxc6, and back in the day, Black would take with the b pawn and I'd play like a reversed Nimzo-Indian. Now, if they have a clue, they take with the d pawn, fiancetto the KB and spend 4 million tempos to put the N on d4 and it's =  Smiley 


[Ed: Number of N moves might have been exageratted]
  
Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Willempie
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #7 - 06/11/07 at 12:29:17
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Maybe you just overfocus? Ie you spend a big amount of time in preparing and during the game you are in deep thought about which plan to follow, but forget to "play chess".
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #6 - 06/11/07 at 11:58:35
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Caveat emptor, I did mention that I'm faithful to my systems....


Re QGD:  I love the minority attacks in the QGD and other lines!  I've scored well with it in various openings, but the QGD Exchange isn't just about the minority attack. I may well bring up specific questions about the QGD Exchange in a thread over in that section. 

My intended point in this thread was not to ask specific questions about what I'm doing wrong in a specific variation, but to comment about the nature of chess itself. 

There is something appealing about certain lines that get under my (and I presume others') skin.  Yet these addictive openings don't support me/us in our hour of need.  What makes these openings so attractive, and why do they let us down despite years of study and worship of them?

I know I'm not alone. (thanks chessy!)  All I have to do is wander over to the BDG section or any of a number of gambit threads to see I'm not alone.  Even Morozevich loves openings that are bad for him in the long run, such as the Chigorin Defense.

I want to know WHY? Shocked Angry

PS: Re my mixed results in the Taimanov:  I'll be glad to share those thoughts, but I'm not sure yet whether to put them in as part of this thread or take that discussion over to the Taimanov section and just refer to the url here.  It will take some time to get some of my games together.

  
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #5 - 06/11/07 at 10:41:51
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Hello Smyslov_Fan,

It would be good to see some of those Taimanov games, if have got the time, and don't mind warning potential opponents. I would post some of my own games, but opponents have so far play anti-sicillians. 

Bye John S
  
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #4 - 06/11/07 at 09:15:35
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/11/07 at 02:39:34:
Hi, 

I have studied a fair number of variations, but I tend to stick to a few favorite lines that just don't score well.  
Cry

I have noticed that others have the same tendency, so I'd like to start a conversation about what makes variations appealing, what makes them work, and why are they so fickle! Huh

Some of my favorite lines that don't seem to hold up under tough scrutiny include the

  • QGD Exchange as White (I keep trying to convince myself that I'm playing it badly, but maybe we just aren't meant to be together?)
  • The Sicilian Taimanov/Paulsen systems as Black
  • The Grunfeld Classical Bf4 as White.

    Each of these systems occur in the games of great players, yet I don't score as well as the stats and the opening itself suggest.  I don't want to give these up, do others have similar issues?

    BTW, here, chess mirrors life:  I am boringly faithful in my relationships. 

    Maybe this is just a mid-life crisis? Embarrassed

It may be a question of time.
When I came back to chess after a 10 years stop, I decided to play 1.d4 (in place of 1.c4) and wanted to play the Sämisch against the KID. I like(d) the positions arising from this opening and also like the fact I can crush my opponent quite on the K or Q-side if he is not good prepared (or does not know what he should do). Now I have good results with the Sämisch but to be honnest, it took me nearly 2 years to understand this opening and before it I lost a lot of games due to the fact I thought I knew better ways than what C. Ward showed in his book. For example: coming back to e2 with the c3-knight is a really bad looking move but with the queen on d2, it helps controlling a5 and blocate for a while black on the Q-side. 

What I want to say is that it can take time to play successfully the openings you really want to play but that it is worth being patient.
  
Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #3 - 06/11/07 at 08:33:16
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JonHecht wrote on 06/11/07 at 03:48:52:
Maybe you just need to study minority attacks in more detail.  Undecided


not sure if the minority attacks garante an advantage in the qgd
  
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Re: Favorite Variations that just don't score well
Reply #2 - 06/11/07 at 08:27:35
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My worst love is the kingsgamibit. I spent a lot of time analysing it,.... loved it.... and lost ...and lost... finially in my agony i started to play the maison gambit (3 games --> 2.5 points), was fun but but objectifly ...well  Cry  Undecided

Now I play the vienna, till know with a much better result as with the kingsgambit. But I each time I face 1.e5 and play 2. Nc3 there is a voice in my heart which calls me "chicken!!!"
  
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