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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Powerful Novelty Against Ward's 13...Rxc3!? ? (Read 5038 times)
bragesjo
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Re: Powerful Novelty Against Ward's 13...Rxc3!? ?
Reply #12 - 09/18/07 at 15:44:17
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White can play Kb1 before h4 and reach a more favorable version of the Soltis
  
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Stigma
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Re: Powerful Novelty Against Ward's 13...Rxc3!? ?
Reply #11 - 09/18/07 at 12:53:44
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Just a quick question for you Dragon experts from someone who's interested in 9.Bc4 from both sides:

Many people recommend meeting 10.Bb3 with ...Nxd4 and b5, but to me that looks a bit risky with White not committed to 0-0-0. He could even play 8.Bc4/9.Bb3 and try to postpone Qd2 as well!

So, is there anything wrong with Black instead aiming for a good old Soltis variation against 9/10.Bb3? Can white prevent this somehow?
  

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bragesjo
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Re: Powerful Novelty Against Ward's 13...Rxc3!? ?
Reply #10 - 08/30/07 at 14:00:07
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for 5-10 years ago 10 Bb3 was thought to be very good for black but in one of the latest New in Chess Yearbooks the showed significant white improvments and claim that Nxd4 + b5 system is good for white. But this year Tiviakov showed how black should play in a game agianst Stellwagen, but computer analysis indicates that white is slightly better but not much. The New in Chess Yearbook didnt mention a move the forces transpration to the Stellwagen-Tiviakov game.

White can also try to get a positional edge after Nxd4 b5 by playing a4 and castle short.
  
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rooksway18
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Re: Powerful Novelty Against Ward's 13...Rxc3!? ?
Reply #9 - 08/28/07 at 02:43:23
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CapaTal wrote on 08/28/07 at 00:47:50:
Hey, since you also apparently use 13...Rxc3!?, do you also think that the position after 13...Nxh5 14.Nd5!? is unpleasant?  I'd gladly just play 13...Nxh5 if 14.Nd5 wasn't something to worry about since I like the exchange sac after 14.g4 Nf6 15.Bh6 Bxh6 16.Rxh6 Rxc3! much better than this stuff we've been looking at where White keeps the dark bishop.


CapaTal,

Yes, I believe the position after 13...Nh5 14.Nd5 is unpleasant for black, but I seem to remember a recent game analyzed by Chris Ward with new ideas for black in this position. I'll try to find it.

Thanks for your latest feedback, CapaTal. I look forward to examining your suggestions.
  
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Re: Powerful Novelty Against Ward's 13...Rxc3!? ?
Reply #8 - 08/28/07 at 01:55:46
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CapaTal wrote on 07/31/07 at 23:54:50:
Thanks for the reply.  That's good advice -- I actually do play the Chinese Dragon and 10.Bb3 Nxd4!?, but the Soltis just seems wrong for me.  I realize it stands very well theoretically, but my impression of it is that it requires better defensive skills than the other Dragons, so I'm going to keep looking for alternatives.

However, I might suggest that this line I encountered might be of interest to players of the White pieces who'd like a fairly simple way to get a good ending after 10...Qa5.  Maybe I'll give it a shot next time I'm playing the White side of 10...Qa5 (might be a while though) and if I lose at least I'll get to see how Black can improve.

I have some ideas/questions in the really old line with ...Rc8 and ...Nc4 and no ...h5, but I'll search for the thread I saw the other day about that line.


I strongly agree with the previous posting. I have played the dragon off and on for forty years. I think that the Soltis is one of black's best lines and should be played. I have also played the 10.Bb3 Nxd4 line.
However the white players these days have not read Fischers book of games and tend not to make the mistake of 10. Bb3 (Yes I real that strongly about blacks chances especially as the line is not dealt with well in many books.
  

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CapaTal
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Re: Powerful Novelty Against Ward's 13...Rxc3!? ?
Reply #7 - 08/28/07 at 00:47:50
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Thanks for the additional analysis.  I actually played a game with 17...a5 just a day or two ago (but with White!), but there I deviated from your analysis right away with 18.a3 and I ended up winning pretty straightforwardly, but it was only a game in 15 on ICC.  I'd dig it up and post, it, but I'm sure the play was too terrible to serve any instructional purpose.  Anyway, I'm following your main line and at the end I think simply 29.Rxd6 should be winning for White.  If 29...Rxg2, then 30.c4 sees White have both an extra piece and the more dangerous passer, but on other moves Black has only one pawn for the piece and must be losing (in my estimation anyway).  I remember, though, that I had marked 17...a5 as the other possible idea besides 17...Re8.  My main line runs 18.a4 h5 (otherwise Nf4 is even better) 19.Nf4 and I can't decide what to do for Black.  One idea I had was 19...Kf8!? when the autopilot 20.Bxf6 Bxf6 21.Nd5 Bg7 looks fine for Black, but 20.Nd3! looks strong.  19...Re8 might be best, but it again looks passive.  19...Rc8 just gets met by 20.Bxf6.

Hey, since you also apparently use 13...Rxc3!?, do you also think that the position after 13...Nxh5 14.Nd5!? is unpleasant?  I'd gladly just play 13...Nxh5 if 14.Nd5 wasn't something to worry about since I like the exchange sac after 14.g4 Nf6 15.Bh6 Bxh6 16.Rxh6 Rxc3! much better than this stuff we've been looking at where White keeps the dark bishop.
  
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rooksway18
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Re: Powerful Novelty Against Ward's 13...Rxc3!? ?
Reply #6 - 08/27/07 at 05:46:55
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CapaTal, I've been analyzing your game using Chessmaster 9000, since I play the ...Qa5 lines as black. Tired of waiting for someone to post concrete that do include ...Qa5, so here's some analysis. It is difficult to trust the computer as a few more pieces get traded off from the position after white's 17th move as we get closer to an end-game. I don't trust the computer's evaluation in imbalanced end-games, so I'm left to do some of the work myself! Please feel free to rip it apart!

From the game, could one possibility be 17...a5 18.a4 (now black doesn't have to worry about Ba4, bothering a black rook landing on c6) 18...Rc8 19.Nf4 Rc3 20.Bf6 Bf6 21.Nd5 Rc6 22.f4 Bg4 23.Nf6+ ef 24.fe Bd1 25.Rd1 fe reaches an ending with black having 3 pawns for a piece? There are so many possibilities throughout this line. Perhaps now 26.Rd6 b6 27.Rb5 Rc3 28.Rb6 Rg3.

Maybe this shows black surviving.
  
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CapaTal
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Re: Powerful Novelty Against Ward's 13...Rxc3!? ?
Reply #5 - 08/26/07 at 19:25:46
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Oh, I looked at my game some more and maybe ...Re8 instead of ...Rc8 is better, but it still doesn't look like my cup of tea.  (I'm thinking, "How do I have compensation with a rook on e8?")
  
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Re: Powerful Novelty Against Ward's 13...Rxc3!? ?
Reply #4 - 08/01/07 at 01:21:10
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If you want something original, you might investigate 10.h4 Ne5 11.Bb3 b5. Also 10...Nxd4 11.Bxd4 b5 has been played; iirc there has been a thread on this.
  

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Re: Powerful Novelty Against Ward's 13...Rxc3!? ?
Reply #3 - 07/31/07 at 23:54:50
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Thanks for the reply.  That's good advice -- I actually do play the Chinese Dragon and 10.Bb3 Nxd4!?, but the Soltis just seems wrong for me.  I realize it stands very well theoretically, but my impression of it is that it requires better defensive skills than the other Dragons, so I'm going to keep looking for alternatives.

However, I might suggest that this line I encountered might be of interest to players of the White pieces who'd like a fairly simple way to get a good ending after 10...Qa5.  Maybe I'll give it a shot next time I'm playing the White side of 10...Qa5 (might be a while though) and if I lose at least I'll get to see how Black can improve.

I have some ideas/questions in the really old line with ...Rc8 and ...Nc4 and no ...h5, but I'll search for the thread I saw the other day about that line.
  
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Re: Powerful Novelty Against Ward's 13...Rxc3!? ?
Reply #2 - 07/31/07 at 07:00:18
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Blacks is struggeling in several lines in Qa5 Dragon. Search the forum for the specific threads.

Instead I recommend a repertoure based on Soltis (10 h4 h5 11 0-0-0 Rc8) Chinese (10 0-0-0 Rb8) and Nxd4 + b5 system
agianst 10 Bb3.

  
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Re: Powerful Novelty Against Ward's 13...Rxc3!? ?
Reply #1 - 07/30/07 at 21:24:11
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Oh, I forgot to ask my actual question:  Anybody have any ideas for improvements on Black's play so he doesn't just get run over like in my game?
  
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Powerful Novelty Against Ward's 13...Rxc3!? ?
07/30/07 at 19:09:33
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Hi everybody!  This is my first post here.  I have a passion for learning and analyzing both sides of the Yugoslav Attack, so I really like this place and I'm enjoying my opportunity to exchange ideas with other enthusiasts.

Okay, so in a tournament I've got Black against an FM and I'm only about 2000 strength so I knew this was going to be tough, but we got a Dragon and I sort of gambled on 10...Qa5 because he played the 10.h4 move order and I haven't properly learned the Soltis.  I was excited when he played h4-h5 instead of h4+g4 and unleashed Ward's prescribed early exchange sac (see the excellent WWTD 2).  However, my opponent plays this plan of Bg5, Ne2-f4, Bxf6, and Nd5 that I hadn't seen before and it appears extremely strong and after some computer-aided analysis is looks to me like Black's position isn't at all fun after 16.Bg5!.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6
6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. h4 Qa5 11. O-O-O Rfc8 12. Bb3
Ne5 13. h5 Rxc3!? {Designed to avoid Nxh5 Nd5, which is supposed to be unpleasant.} 14. Qxc3 Qxc3 15. bxc3 Nxh5 {Ward gives compensation for Black and practical results are good I think, but...} 16. Bg5! Nf6 17. Ne2! {A strong new move, I think.  Now what?} Rc8 18. Nf4 b5? {not best but it was difficult anyway} 19. Bxf6 Bxf6 20. Nd5 Kg7 21. Nxf6 Kxf6 22. Rxh7 {and eventually 1-0}

Okay, so I know this isn't terribly critical to most as they regard h4+g4 to very strong for White anyway.  If you see Dearing's awesome book you might find an interesting way to try to revive h4+g4 for Black in practical play (...b4 instead of the usual ...Nc4), though, and I was willing to give it a shot, but I guess I might as well learn the Soltis or play ...Rc8 and ...Nc4 (I recall having some analysis that maybe Black's okay after the so-called Kb1 refutation, but I haven't tested it out yet and it's been long enough ago that I'd have to look at it again to make sense of it) if not even the usual exchange-down endgame with compensation is viable in 10...Qa5.
  
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