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Bird - Black plays d5 and Nc6 (Read 11620 times)

thibdb13 God Member Offline Tal was the best Posts: 974 Location: Mechelen Joined: 01/25/07 Gender:	Re: Bird - Black plays d5 and Nc6 Reply #13 - 09/27/07 at 08:12:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	By the way on Danielsen's site there is a message talking about an up to come e-book. Does anyone know when it could be ready?

	Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Black_Widow Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 164 Location: Veenendaal Joined: 03/04/05 Gender:	Re: Bird - Black plays d5 and Nc6 Reply #12 - 09/26/07 at 10:56:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Your right, his site contains a lot of good analysis on the bird, which you can not find in books. And I think the biggest problem with taking up the Bird, is the amount of home analysis you must do before you can start. Danielsen is covering well some hardly analyzed area's.


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thibdb13 God Member Offline Tal was the best Posts: 974 Location: Mechelen Joined: 01/25/07 Gender:	Re: Bird - Black plays d5 and Nc6 Reply #11 - 09/25/07 at 19:58:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	thibdb13 wrote on 08/11/07 at 17:49:03: On a rapid tournament in Czechia, I faced twice this move order: 1. f4-d5 2.Nf3-Nc6 I eventually won both games but did not feel secure in the opening (I continued on the Leningrad way and in one game black came with f6 and e5) - in fact I won because my opponents were rather weak players and I have the impression the Leningrad way is not the best one to get something out of the opening in this case What are your recommendations against such a black approach? I just saw lesson #2 about the Polar Bear at www.videochess.net and Danielsen recommend the e3-Bb5 approach. By the way, I must say Danielsen's site is very well done

	Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Black_Widow Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 164 Location: Veenendaal Joined: 03/04/05 Gender:	Re: Bird - Black plays d5 and Nc6 Reply #10 - 09/22/07 at 19:35:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	I mentioned on purpose as last move Ne5, since after that move the possibilities what can be played by white or black explode. Fritz / Crafty see the pawn which black has. But whites compensation is a long initiative, where it is very difficult to see for black how to play. So objectively I think it is unclear, but in practical play it has very good chances for white. After 10 .. 0-0 11 Ra4 looks good, but for sure it is not the only move. The times I played this variation with white, I had very good results, it was not hard to find good moves, while the black players were struggling.


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thibdb13 God Member Offline Tal was the best Posts: 974 Location: Mechelen Joined: 01/25/07 Gender:	Re: Bird - Black plays d5 and Nc6 Reply #9 - 09/22/07 at 10:52:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Black_Widow wrote on 09/12/07 at 20:56:16: thibdb13 wrote on 09/12/07 at 18:28:05: By the way, what is your setup against setups with d5, c5 and e6? Is the Leningrad playable against this? I think the Leningrad Bird is not so easy to play for a win against most black set-ups. Since it is a wait and see opening, and therefore it works as normal black opening very well. However there are exeptions, what do you think about the thing below: 1. f4 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. O-O g6 6. c4 d4 7. a3 Bg7 8. b4 cxb4 9. axb4 Nxb4 10. Ne5 I gave already several knock-outs with idea's like this, including title holders. The above is not forced, but it plays very easy for white. My chess program (Crafty) does not like it so much (but in fact he does not much like the Bird ) and give -1.25 after Ne5. Personnally I find the position quite interesting. Which plan would you recommend to white after black castling?

	Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Black_Widow Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 164 Location: Veenendaal Joined: 03/04/05 Gender:	Re: Bird - Black plays d5 and Nc6 Reply #8 - 09/12/07 at 20:56:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	thibdb13 wrote on 09/12/07 at 18:28:05: By the way, what is your setup against setups with d5, c5 and e6? Is the Leningrad playable against this? I think the Leningrad Bird is not so easy to play for a win against most black set-ups. Since it is a wait and see opening, and therefore it works as normal black opening very well. However there are exeptions, what do you think about the thing below: 1. f4 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. O-O g6 6. c4 d4 7. a3 Bg7 8. b4 cxb4 9. axb4 Nxb4 10. Ne5 I gave already several knock-outs with idea's like this, including title holders. The above is not forced, but it plays very easy for white.


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thibdb13 God Member Offline Tal was the best Posts: 974 Location: Mechelen Joined: 01/25/07 Gender:	Re: Bird - Black plays d5 and Nc6 Reply #7 - 09/12/07 at 18:28:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Black_Widow wrote on 08/14/07 at 20:16:00: After 4 h3-Bxf3 would you go for Qf3 (forced) and g4 as Taylor recommends it? Yes I suppose it should be easier for white to get an advantage than in a position with the black knight on Nd7 where the Bb5 pin is not so effective due to c6. Yes, Bb5 is a nice to have additional possibility in some lines, if the black night is on c6. In addition to the Taylor book, two additional games are important: Danielsen-Internet Oponent 1-0 1. f4 d5 2. Nf3 Bg4 3. e3 Nd7 4. h3 Bxf3 5. Qxf3 Ngf6 6. g4 e6 7. d3 Bd6 8. e4 dxe4 9. dxe4 e5 10. g5 Ng8 11. f5 h6 12. Qh5 Ne7 13. Bc4 g6 14. Bxf7+ Kxf7 15. fxg6+ Kg8 16. gxh6 Nf6 17. h7+ Nxh7 18. g7 Bb4+ 19. c3 Qd4 20. Qg4 Nf6 21. gxh8=Q+ Kxh8 22. Qh4+ Kg7 23. Bh6+ Kf7 24. Nd2 Bxc3 25. bxc3 Qxc3 26. Rb1 1-0 Danielsen-Internet Opponent 1-0 1. f4 d5 2. Nf3 Bg4 3. e3 Nd7 4. h3 Bxf3 (4... Bh5 $2 5. g4 Bg6 6. f5) 5. Qxf3 e6 6. d4 $5 Ngf6 7. Bd3 c5 8. c3 c4 9. Bc2 Bd6 10. Nd2 Qc7 11. O-O O-O 12. g4 Qc6 13. g5 Ne8 14. e4 Bc7 15. e5 Ba5 16. f5 Nc7 17. f6 g6 18. h4 Rac8 19. h5 Bb6 20. Kg2 Rfd8 21. hxg6 fxg6 22. Bxg6 hxg6 23. Qh3 Nxf6 24. exf6 Rd7 25. Qh6 Ne8 26. Rh1 1-0 The two games above show how white should play, and also show why in the first game, why it is nice not to have played an early d4. By the way, what is your setup against setups with d5, c5 and e6? Is the Leningrad playable against this?

	Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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thibdb13 God Member Offline Tal was the best Posts: 974 Location: Mechelen Joined: 01/25/07 Gender:	Re: Bird - Black plays d5 and Nc6 Reply #6 - 08/20/07 at 14:49:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks for the examples. Very interesting!

	Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Black_Widow Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 164 Location: Veenendaal Joined: 03/04/05 Gender:	Re: Bird - Black plays d5 and Nc6 Reply #5 - 08/14/07 at 20:16:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	After 4 h3-Bxf3 would you go for Qf3 (forced) and g4 as Taylor recommends it? Yes I suppose it should be easier for white to get an advantage than in a position with the black knight on Nd7 where the Bb5 pin is not so effective due to c6. Yes, Bb5 is a nice to have additional possibility in some lines, if the black night is on c6. In addition to the Taylor book, two additional games are important: Danielsen-Internet Oponent 1-0 1. f4 d5 2. Nf3 Bg4 3. e3 Nd7 4. h3 Bxf3 5. Qxf3 Ngf6 6. g4 e6 7. d3 Bd6 8. e4 dxe4 9. dxe4 e5 10. g5 Ng8 11. f5 h6 12. Qh5 Ne7 13. Bc4 g6 14. Bxf7+ Kxf7 15. fxg6+ Kg8 16. gxh6 Nf6 17. h7+ Nxh7 18. g7 Bb4+ 19. c3 Qd4 20. Qg4 Nf6 21. gxh8=Q+ Kxh8 22. Qh4+ Kg7 23. Bh6+ Kf7 24. Nd2 Bxc3 25. bxc3 Qxc3 26. Rb1 1-0 Danielsen-Internet Opponent 1-0 1. f4 d5 2. Nf3 Bg4 3. e3 Nd7 4. h3 Bxf3 (4... Bh5 $2 5. g4 Bg6 6. f5) 5. Qxf3 e6 6. d4 $5 Ngf6 7. Bd3 c5 8. c3 c4 9. Bc2 Bd6 10. Nd2 Qc7 11. O-O O-O 12. g4 Qc6 13. g5 Ne8 14. e4 Bc7 15. e5 Ba5 16. f5 Nc7 17. f6 g6 18. h4 Rac8 19. h5 Bb6 20. Kg2 Rfd8 21. hxg6 fxg6 22. Bxg6 hxg6 23. Qh3 Nxf6 24. exf6 Rd7 25. Qh6 Ne8 26. Rh1 1-0 The two games above show how white should play, and also show why in the first game, why it is nice not to have played an early d4.


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thibdb13 God Member Offline Tal was the best Posts: 974 Location: Mechelen Joined: 01/25/07 Gender:	Re: Bird - Black plays d5 and Nc6 Reply #4 - 08/14/07 at 18:15:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Black_Widow wrote on 08/13/07 at 14:33:26: 1 f4 Nc6 (I think this gives black better choices, then immediate 1 .. d5) 2 Nf3 d5 3 e3 Bg4, which is the most logical choice in this situation. Then 4 h3 and then improved lines of the "Polar Bear" appear as Danielsen calls it. I only play the Leningrad Bird, if black fianchetto's his kings bishop. Against setups with e6-d5 (-c5) and Be7, I find it hard to win with a Leningrad setup. After 4 h3-Bxf3 would you go for Qf3 (forced) and g4 as Taylor recommends it? I suppose it should be easier for white to get an advantage than in a position with the black knight on Nd7 where the Bb5 pin is not so effective due to c6.

	Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Black_Widow Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 164 Location: Veenendaal Joined: 03/04/05 Gender:	Re: Bird - Black plays d5 and Nc6 Reply #3 - 08/14/07 at 17:31:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	I do not think 3 d4 is wrong, but I would not play it for the following reasons: * The difference with the Dutch is that black there tries to equalize, with d5 after an early Nc3 (without c4). However in the Bird, the challange is to find lines which give white as least a pull or a small advantage. 3 e3 gives I think a small advantage, if combined with 4 h3 and 5 Q x f3. And then white has a clear initiative on the king-side. * After 3 d4 soon e3 also has to follow. So it is less flexible. * To my knowledge there is no clear patch for an easy game for white. That said, I would never block my c-pawn so early, without a good reason, so 3 .. Nc6 does not look elegant.


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thibdb13 God Member Offline Tal was the best Posts: 974 Location: Mechelen Joined: 01/25/07 Gender:	Re: Bird - Black plays d5 and Nc6 Reply #2 - 08/13/07 at 15:34:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	What do you think of playing 3.d4, as it is often recommended in the dutch in such positions?

	Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Black_Widow Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 164 Location: Veenendaal Joined: 03/04/05 Gender:	Re: Bird - Black plays d5 and Nc6 Reply #1 - 08/13/07 at 14:33:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	1 f4 Nc6 (I think this gives black better choices, then immediate 1 .. d5) 2 Nf3 d5 3 e3 Bg4, which is the most logical choice in this situation. Then 4 h3 and then improved lines of the "Polar Bear" appear as Danielsen calls it. I only play the Leningrad Bird, if black fianchetto's his kings bishop. Against setups with e6-d5 (-c5) and Be7, I find it hard to win with a Leningrad setup.


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thibdb13 God Member Offline Tal was the best Posts: 974 Location: Mechelen Joined: 01/25/07 Gender:	Bird - Black plays d5 and Nc6 08/11/07 at 17:49:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	On a rapid tournament in Czechia, I faced twice this move order: 1. f4-d5 2.Nf3-Nc6 I eventually won both games but did not feel secure in the opening (I continued on the Leningrad way and in one game black came with f6 and e5) - in fact I won because my opponents were rather weak players and I have the impression the Leningrad way is not the best one to get something out of the opening in this case What are your recommendations against such a black approach?

	Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
	IP Logged

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