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what does a slav player play against 1.c4? (Read 19707 times)

cyronix Ex Member	Re: what does a slav player play against 1.c4? Reply #5 - 09/09/07 at 20:38:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	I also thought on 1.c4 e6, because 2.e4 is not considered good, at least noone plays 1.e4 e6 2.c4 against the french, and 1. e4 c5 .c4 is also not considered good for white, to which I could transpose after 1.c4 e6 2. e4 c5. But in the end I am playing a Queen's Gambit. I have do admit I just began playing the slav, and I want to play it like this 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6. But I have some experience in the Queen's Gambit declined, but in these positions I felt a bit cramped too much. On top level I don't see any player trying to go into the slav by playing e6 first. I think it was discussed here that d4 d5 c4 e6 is an inferior move order to go into the slav. I looked up some games of the c4 c6 e4 e5 position, not a single top gm (2600+) played like this, o.k. kamsky did against a 2200 ... I think there is a reason for that. Also I have a book 'attacking with e4', where John Emms says at the end of his chapter on the panov-attack "Don't feel too concerned about having to face a 'King''s Indian' set-up. It's only one line, which is meant to be quite favourable to White". If you play 1.c4 c6 you have to play d5 after e4, this is also a very good move, it probably equalizes, because on the absolute top level noone plays e4 c6 c4. It is equal, but the position is too simple to get much more than a draw with black. I have seen the g6 variation in the panov-attack, but it just seems like a mix of an accelerated dragon and a gruenfeld to me, a mix of 2 drawmakers. I think I'll stay with the symmetrical, I do not want to play an inferior opening with black. Many of my prefered players like anand, kasparov, topalov, they did all play c4 e5, I really tried this e5 stuff for some time, it just does not look as promising as the symmetrical to me, in playing for a win ... but at least kramnik played it, also anand and topalov toyed with it and many 2600+ play it.


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: what does a slav player play against 1.c4? Reply #4 - 09/09/07 at 19:31:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: yes, didn't mean it that way, but I think white has very little advantage in these positions, and these positions are very simple ... it is just like a carocann black plays for a draw ... This is still puzzling. For example it can hardly be said that classical IQP positions (which the Panov and Pseudo-Panov often lead to) are "very simple" or that "Black is just playing for a draw."


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ErictheRed God Member Offline USCF National Master Posts: 2534 Location: USA Joined: 10/02/05	Re: what does a slav player play against 1.c4? Reply #3 - 09/09/07 at 19:15:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	I used to have this same Semi-Slav and Taimanov repertoire, and I recommend 1...e6 (you could also try 1...Nf6). 1.c4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 basically forces 3.d4, and there's not much else for White to try. He could play Catalan-like with 2.g3 d5 or something, but that's something you might have to deal with anyway (unless you choose the Slav more order 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6). Another good thing about 1.c4 e6 is that 2.e4 can now be met with 2...c5 with some sort of Sicilian in prospect. Basically 1...e6 almost forces white to get back into your repertoire, and the independent lines shouldn't require too much effort on your part to work out. 1.c4 e6 2.g3 and 2.Nf3 are about it. If you really want to "punish" an English player for avoiding your main repertoire, you can even play something like 1.c4 e6 2.g3 f5 or something. Some of the Catalan-like lines have some interesting points when White hasn't played d2-d4 and Black hasn't played ...Ng8-f6 yet. Edit: I guess this all depends on how you play the Semi-Slav. For instance, do you play the "Triangle" move order and allow the Marshall Gambit 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 e6 e4, or do you play 2...c6? Would you consider allowing White the Catalan? Do you play the Botvinnik or Moscow Semi-Slav, or do you transpose to the Cambridge Springs variation?


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cyronix Ex Member	Re: what does a slav player play against 1.c4? Reply #2 - 09/09/07 at 19:12:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	yes, didn't mean it that way, but I think white has very little advantage in these positions, and these positions are very simple ... it is just like a carocann black plays for a draw ...


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: what does a slav player play against 1.c4? Reply #1 - 09/09/07 at 19:05:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	1. c4 c6 2. e4 e5 is certainly playable, if you don't mind Old Indian(-ish) positions. The claim that the Panov (or the Pseudo-Panov or whatever it might be called) is "practically a forced draw" is odd, though.


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cyronix Ex Member	what does a slav player play against 1.c4? 09/09/07 at 18:47:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm still searching for the right opening against 1.c4. My current repertoire is the semislav against d4 and the taimanov against e4. So of course I am thinking now of playing 1.c4 c6, to transpose into the semislav, but there is one move that frightenend me a bit, 2. e4 ... most gm's respond d5 as black, but I don't like this panov attack, it is almost a forced draw, I can not imagine myself to play this against a much lower rated player, and I also want to play dynamic, it is just my nature, so I also do not want to play this against a stronger player ... so I am thinking of 1.c4 c6 2. e4 e5!?, can you recommend this to me? Is it really sound? I think I lately saw a game from Alekseev or Jakovenko playing something of this g6 d6 c6 Bg7 stuff (although I think it was against d4, but I do not think it really matters if you play this also against c4). I think I could like it, I also like to play tiger's modern (g6 Bg7 d6 a6) in blitz, although you can expand better on queenside there ... Currently I try to play the symmetrical english, I kind of like if I get into an eagle position in the symmetrical English, but this is not always possible, at least not according to Hansen, The Symmetrical English, for example 1.c4 c5 Nc3 Nc6 g3 g6 it always ends up in a 'pure symmetrical', without queenside fianchetto, there is a lot of struggle and also good winning chances, but this opening does not seem exactly to my taste, I find it quite hard to find a plan in these very closed positions, although in my fritz powerbook I found a queenside fianchetto move nevertheless, 1.c4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.Nf3 b6!? followed by the moves Bxc3!? Bb7 d6 Qc7 0-0-0!? ... but I am not so sure ... also tried out c4 e5, but in these positions I only sympathize with the Keres-Variation, but white can prevent the keres variation it seems to, 1.c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 and black cannot play c6, and the e4-variation seems dubious to me ... 3. ... e4 4. Ng4 b5 ... I don't like it ... and the e5-rest ... white is just too solid with the king's fianchetto, and the center pawns do not brake through, but white has a bit of play on the queenside and put pressure on you, and you can only defend on queenside, it is very hard to play for advantage ... so is c4 c6 e4 e5 really sound? Otherwise I will stay with the symmetrical. Or what do you play against 1. c4?


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