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Sandman
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Re: Which openings for a beginner?
Reply #8 - 10/01/07 at 13:07:01
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Markovich (and anyone else),

Above, you recommend for white the Scotch 4-knights and also the d4 two-knights. If one wants to play the d4 two knights, what do you suggest if black plays 3)…Bc5?  Also, what are your feelings on the Max Lange for amateurs? 

Thanks in advance
  

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MNb
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Re: Which openings for a beginner?
Reply #7 - 09/21/07 at 02:01:20
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Personally, I stay with e4, but I think I will also play 1.c4 from time to time, I played 1.d4 in my whole youth for about 10 years, and I think because of this I have also a quite good understanding of 1.c4 positions, c4 is not as sharp as 1.d4, but there also good ways to develop pressure and most important it is far less theory than 1.d4. Especially if you want to play something else against some super prepared opponent ... 1.c4 is really good.
I think I could be 200 points better, with only really good opening knowledge.

Hopping around from 1.d4 to 1.e4 to 1.c4 will not help. And it's no use either to pick openings as a 2nd option if your 1st option is not allright.
  

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Markovich
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Re: Which openings for a beginner?
Reply #6 - 09/20/07 at 16:01:33
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Hello again,

sorry, this was a pure philosophical question what would be the best openings to learn chess for a beginner.
I myself am not a beginner. 
So symmetrical openings at first, e4 e5 and d4 d5, c4 e6 followed by d5 and 1.e4 for a pure beginner,
after reaching 1700 or so more complex stuff ...

Personally, I stay with e4, but I think I will also play 1.c4 from time to time, I played 1.d4 in my whole youth for about 10 years, and I think because of this I have also a quite good understanding of 1.c4 positions, c4 is not as sharp as 1.d4, but there also good ways to develop pressure and most important it is far less theory than 1.d4. Especially if you want to play something else against some super prepared opponent ... 1.c4 is really good.

I also thought on 2nd openings for black, I really consider the french and the semislav,
but I do not really need them, so I will only learn these 2nd openings for black, when I can play my mainsystems I have now (Sicilian Taimanov, Nimzo/Benoni, Symmetrical English) really well, so maybe in 3-5 years I could start to learn them, it really is not good for you play an opening with only little superficial knowledge, like I do, I think I could be 200 points better, with only really good opening knowledge.


Are you talking in the first person about a hypothetical beginner, or talking about yourself?  These are two different questions which you have managed to confuse here.  In any case, I've lost my patience, so goodbye.
  

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cyronix
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Re: Which openings for a beginner?
Reply #5 - 09/20/07 at 15:03:23
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Hello again,

sorry, this was a pure philosophical question what would be the best openings to learn chess for a beginner.
I myself am not a beginner. 
So symmetrical openings at first, e4 e5 and d4 d5, c4 e6 followed by d5 and 1.e4 for a pure beginner,
after reaching 1700 or so more complex stuff ...

Personally, I stay with e4, but I think I will also play 1.c4 from time to time, I played 1.d4 in my whole youth for about 10 years, and I think because of this I have also a quite good understanding of 1.c4 positions, c4 is not as sharp as 1.d4, but there also good ways to develop pressure and most important it is far less theory than 1.d4. Especially if you want to play something else against some super prepared opponent ... 1.c4 is really good.

I also thought on 2nd openings for black, I really consider the french and the semislav,
but I do not really need them, so I will only learn these 2nd openings for black, when I can play my mainsystems I have now (Sicilian Taimanov, Nimzo/Benoni, Symmetrical English) really well, so maybe in 3-5 years I could start to learn them, it really is not good for you play an opening with only little superficial knowledge, like I do, I think I could be 200 points better, with only really good opening knowledge.
  
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MNb
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Re: Which openings for a beginner?
Reply #4 - 09/18/07 at 21:34:44
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@Markovich

Something like this was my first reaction too, but then I read that Cyronix has an otb-rating of slightly more than 2000 and already feels comfortable in open positions. So he might need a little more sophistication; the problem is that he is also quite lazy in openings - see the thread on the Bishop's Opening.

@Cyronix
Having received a compliment that I know a little about openings I feel obliged to throw in some thoughts as well. First of all, shake of that laziness and do some work on important lines. Secondly do not switch from 1.e4 to 1.d4 to 1.c4 every three months; you will get nothing out of it. If you decide to chose  1.d4 (imo at least as sharp as 1.e4) or 1.c4, then stick to it for at least 10 years or so. But given your laziness I would say stick to 1.e4. It means you will have to accept some long manoeuvring games now and then.

Open Games:
A) either Petrov 5.Nc3 combined with Evans Gambit and Two Knights 4.Ng5 evt. 4.d4 exd4 5.e5
B) or the Bishops game, combining the KG-Declined and the Modern Italian/Giuoco Pianissimo.
C) or Petrov 5.Nc3 combined with Ruy Lopez Qe2. Buy Andrew Greet's book then.
All options require work. The last might be the most sensible on the long run.

Sicilian:
as studying the Morra Gambit takes more time today than the Open Sicilian (except if you chose topical stuff like the English Attack of course) I would say 2.Nf3, 3.d4 and a 5.Be2/6.Be2 repertoire. Again some serious work is necessary.
Against the Najdorf you will have to chose between 6.f4, 6.Be3 and 6.Be2. In all cases 6...e6 transposes to the Classical Scheveningen. Especially the setup Qg3, Rad1, Rfe1, Bf3, Bd4 preparing the sac Nd5 is interesting.
Against the Scheveningen proper the problem is 6.Be2 Be7 7.0-0 0-0 8.f4 Nc6 9.Be3 not ...a6. White can avoid this with either the Keres Attack 6.g4 or 6.Be3 evt. x.Bc4.
While the Richter-Rauser 6.Bg5 is the most challenging, the Sozin 6.Bc4 is much less work and still contains some venom. Play 7.Be3 and 8.Bb3 and decide only then whether to play the Velimirovic (9.Qe2 and 10.0-0-0), the Fischer (9.f4 or 9.0-0 and 10.f4) or the modern 9.f4 and 10.Qf3.
Against the Dragon and Accelerated Dragon again a second best option saves a lot of time, eg 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Be2 Bg7 6.Nb3 Nf6 7.Nc3 d6 8.0-0 0-0 9.Kh1.

French:
Probably the Universal System/Kortsjnoj Gambit will suit you: 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.c3 c5 6.Bd3 Nc6 6.Ngf3.

Caro Kann:
There are several options here. The Exchange 4.Bd3 might not pose enough problems, but either 3.f3 or the Short System (3.e5 and 4.Nf3) or some main line deviations with an early Bc4 are possible. If you don't might some irregular stuff you might take a look at

http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2007/caro-adv-h4.htm

Pirc/Modern:
a setup based on Be3/Qd2, postponing the choice between x.f3 and x.Nf3 a bit.

Classical Scandinavian:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 Bf5 (c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Ne5) 6.Ne5 c6 7.Bc4 e6 8.g4.

Scandinavian Marshall Gambit:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Bb5+.

Alekhine:
that is a bit of a problem, as the most interesting (Four Pawns) also involves a lot of work. I will have to think about that.

I have to think about a Black repertoire as well.

« Last Edit: 09/18/07 at 22:47:19 by MNb »  

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Markovich
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Re: Which openings for a beginner?
Reply #3 - 09/18/07 at 15:02:34
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Of course at first the open games, symmetrical stuff I think,
but if a player has aquired a certain strength,
I believe, White: English Black: KID + French could form a good opening repertoire.
Very Different Openings, one fianchetto with c pawn advanced, the other fianchetto with e pawn advanced,
and French is more normal, but can be much more dynamic than a QG, so I think many different and complex positions are reached and one can learn a quite universal positional understanding.


Absolutely not the French or the KID; beginners need first to learn how to play open positions.  Open positions are fundamental.  You could not pick worse systems than these two to teach to a relatively new player.  I know you said, "for players of a certain strength."  But no one who could reasonably be called a beginner should take up these systems.  I would advocate becomming essentially an expert in slash-and-burn, open, combinatory play before taking up such closed systems.

You have to be quite sparing in how much theory you push on a beginner.  There are more important things they have to think about, such as, how to hang onto their material!  But for beginners who are sufficiently ready, I advocate:

as White

1.e4 and the Scotch 4 Knights. Grossly wrong is to teach the Italian with d3, which produces an insufficiently open position.  The Spanish is way too sophisticated.  Possible would be the 19th-Century forms of the Italian, plus 4. d4 versus the Two Knights.  Kings Gambit is too weakening for beginners, but a somewhat more advanced student could take it up.   

Exchange versus the French followed by 4.c4 or 4.Nf3, 5.c4  (some might consider this funny but the point is, it insists on an open game)

Panov-Botvinnik versus the Caro

Smith-Morra versus the Sicilian

as Black

1...e5 and the Classical Spanish and the Two Knights

The Tarrasch versus 1.d4, 1.c4, 1.Nf3.  E.g. 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 3.c4! e6.

French setup versus KIA.

An alternative White case could be made for the Blackmar-Diemer and the Staunton against the Dutch.
  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Which openings for a beginner?
Reply #2 - 09/18/07 at 04:43:50
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Play classical openings.  Don't start off playing openings like the King's Indian Defence or English until you attain some proficiency with more classical openings, like the Queen's Gambit.
  
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nyoke
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Re: Which openings for a beginner?
Reply #1 - 09/17/07 at 17:58:45
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I don't think it matters too much which opening you pick (al long as it is a sound one) but what is vital is the quality of the information you get about it.  If I were to teach my son I would start out with the Tarrasch defense I think (persusing Keilhacks excellent book). Sadlers books fit the bill rather nicely too.
  
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cyronix
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Which openings for a beginner?
09/15/07 at 07:16:39
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Of course at first the open games, symmetrical stuff I think,
but if a player has aquired a certain strength,
I believe, White: English Black: KID + French could form a good opening repertoire.
Very Different Openings, one fianchetto with c pawn advanced, the other fianchetto with e pawn advanced,
and French is more normal, but can be much more dynamic than a QG, so I think many different and complex positions are reached and one can learn a quite universal positional understanding.
  
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