Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Greatest Opening Ideas (Read 36868 times)
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Greatest Opening Ideas
Reply #68 - 10/08/07 at 21:55:46
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 10/08/07 at 20:36:47:
Markovich wrote on 10/08/07 at 19:43:50:

Where you have a revolutionary reappraisal of how to play an opening, or how in general to play the chess openings, that is what could possibly qualify for the honor proposed here.

That is why I nominated 6.Bg5 (Pachman) and 7.f4 (Keres) against the Najdorf. This introduced decades of games, in which White tried to blow away the Sicilian and especially the Najdorf.

And whichever chaps came up with the Be3, f3, Qd2 scheme against the dragon, pirc and now even the Najdorf and schevy.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Greatest Opening Ideas
Reply #67 - 10/08/07 at 20:36:47
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 10/08/07 at 19:43:50:

Where you have a revolutionary reappraisal of how to play an opening, or how in general to play the chess openings, that is what could possibly qualify for the honor proposed here.

That is why I nominated 6.Bg5 (Pachman) and 7.f4 (Keres) against the Najdorf. This introduced decades of games, in which White tried to blow away the Sicilian and especially the Najdorf.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Greatest Opening Ideas
Reply #66 - 10/08/07 at 19:46:25
Post Tools
Did Tal really bust the Caro in 1960?  Throughout his wonderful book on the match, he seemed to almost groan every time Botvinnik played 1...c6.  How much of this is Tal's humility, of course, warrants some attention, but he seemed to feel as though he was running into a brick wall...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Greatest Opening Ideas
Reply #65 - 10/08/07 at 19:43:50
Post Tools
woofwoof wrote on 10/08/07 at 18:41:10:
Willempie wrote on 10/08/07 at 17:47:30:
Tal's play against the Caro should deserve a mention in any case...


Err....didnt Tal have a miserable time against it?? It was due to his inability to play against the CK which ultimately killed him in 61??


What a striking idea, the embittered Tal cursing the Caro from his death bed.  Where did you get this?

On this thread in general, an awful lot of this stuff is small potatoes.  Some system in the main line Caro?  Come on.

Where you have a revolutionary reappraisal of how to play an opening, or how in general to play the chess openings, that is what could possibly qualify for the honor proposed here.  That's why I think the Boleslavsky Sicilian is quite important.  Something somewhat big within the past couple of decades was Nf3 and soon Rb1 versus the Gruenfeld.  I remember when the textbooks all said that Nf3 was an outright error.   

But looking back, you would have to say Evans' Gambit was the Big One of the early 19th Century; the Tarrasch Defense of the latter 19th; the Indian Systems and Alekhine's Defense of the early 20th.  These last really have to be the hydrogen bombs; there was a complete reappraisal of how to play the chess openings.

Minor but interesting: 

The refutation of the Moeller Attack, which I believe is due to Lajos Portisch.   

9. Qe2 and Rd1 used to be considered quite strong against the Open until Kortchnoi showed how Black could equalize.  That judgement has been unchallenged for at least 20 years.

Ponomariov's demonstration that Black handily survives Zaitsev's piece sac vs. the Open.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Greatest Opening Ideas
Reply #64 - 10/08/07 at 18:50:19
Post Tools
Speaking of great players and their opening choices....

Fischer's Sozin Sicilian was a great innovation for its day and was largely responsible for many of his victories in the 1960s.  If it's not so popular today, it's mainly thanks to the work of the generation that followed Fischer in every respect.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Greatest Opening Ideas
Reply #63 - 10/08/07 at 18:48:17
Post Tools
Tal's victory against Portisch (1965  Candidates) was one of his greatest wins in an illustrious career. 

Tal won the Caro-Kann battle in 1960, but clearly lost the same argument in 1961.  He tried numerous ideas in later years, so I don't know that he thought he had found a great innovation against it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
woofwoof
God Member
*****
Offline


chess is like life

Posts: 929
Location: Singapore
Joined: 07/04/05
Gender: Male
Re: Greatest Opening Ideas
Reply #62 - 10/08/07 at 18:41:10
Post Tools
Willempie wrote on 10/08/07 at 17:47:30:
Tal's play against the Caro should deserve a mention in any case...


Err....didnt Tal have a miserable time against it?? It was due to his inability to play against the CK which ultimately killed him in 61??
  

"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1520
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Greatest Opening Ideas
Reply #61 - 10/08/07 at 17:59:41
Post Tools
Ok, a few more then . . .

This may be too new to judge, but the idea of 9.Nxc6 in the B66 Rauzer seems to have put that particular opening line out of business.  The key, of course, is the follow-up 10.Bf4 and 11.Qe3, which was first played by Santo Roman in 1997.   

The current discussion in the Nimzo/Benoni section brings to mind Adorjan's fantastic innovation.   1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 c5 5. Nge2 cxd4 6. exd4 O-O 7. a3 Be7 8. d5 exd5 9. cxd5 Re8 10. Be3 and now 10...Ng4 11. Bd4 Nh6!! basically refuted the 10.Be3 line.  (Although congrats to Semko for hanging tough and still beating Dzindzhi when he faced this in Canada.)

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Greatest Opening Ideas
Reply #60 - 10/08/07 at 17:47:30
Post Tools
I'll just add Tal's (or Nunn I am not sure) concept of Ng5 against the Nd7 Caro (at that time the drawing weapon of Karpov and the likes). Crushing your opponent in under 10 moves is quite a feat, but also in a variation that is still relevant and later repeated against Kasparov by IBM. Tal's play against the Caro should deserve a mention in any case...
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IM Christoph Wisnewski
Full Member
***
Offline


International Master

Posts: 195
Location: Kiel
Joined: 04/03/05
Gender: Male
Re: Greatest Opening Ideas
Reply #59 - 10/08/07 at 16:41:52
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 10/08/07 at 03:16:18:
Smyslov Fan, 

...but after all, Christophe has a whole book to fill! ...



Don't you worry about that! My problem will rather be what to select and what to exclude; there are so many ideas! I'll just started this thread in order to see if there are certain "trends" - but of course I don't mind if you all keep this conversation up and running! I'll already know there will be a lot of controversy, but I suppose that doesn't hurt at all.
  

"Chess you don't learn, chess you understand!" (V. Korchnoi)
Back to top
WWWICQ  
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1520
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Greatest Opening Ideas
Reply #58 - 10/08/07 at 03:16:18
Post Tools
Smyslov Fan, 

I've been trying to think of some more White ones for you.  You're right that they're harder to come by or at least not on the same level as the ones on the Black side.  For some of these, I had to drill down a bit more, but after all, Christophe has a whole book to fill!  Here goes:


The Open Sicilian.  (Was McDonnell the first to play 2.Nf3 and 3.d4??)

Steinitz's plan against the French; not just f4, but his dxc5 follow-up.

Steinitz's invention of the minority attack.

Tartakower's invention of the Catalan.

Taimanov's attack with f4 and Bb5+, which came pretty close to sinking the Modern Benoni.   

The Velimirovic Attack was a pretty neat idea. 

Bronstein's d5 exchange sac in the Gruenfeld with Bc4.

In the QGD, Bf4 had been known since at least Blackburne, but Kaidanov's 0-0-0 gave the opening fresh legs.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Greatest Opening Ideas
Reply #57 - 10/07/07 at 08:37:32
Post Tools
MNb, 

Yes, 3...a6 is Morphy's moves.  I had already suggested that 3.Bb5 was worth considering as one of the greatest innovations of modern chess.  (I don't consider the rule changes that created modern chess to be opening innovations as such.)

I think the best representatives of the Hyper-Modern school are the Nimzo-Indian and the Queen's Indian.  The very names show how little respect they initially received yet they are considered main lines today.   

Some of the greatest innovations of the Soviet School era include the King's Indian and  Najdorf Sicilian (I still don't let my students play the Najdorf unless they can explain why Black plays a6).

I've noticed that I have found relatively few conceptual innovations for White compared to Black.  This is probably a natural outcome of Black constantly striving for counterplay and White having to react to these innovations.  Yet White's innovations are just as important, if less flashy.  I am interested in seeing Christoph's book to see what innovations he comes up with!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Greatest Opening Ideas
Reply #56 - 10/06/07 at 21:06:53
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/06/07 at 04:52:24:
Keano, 

I don't mean to denigrate the Evans, I just don't think it was such a great conceptual leap at the time.  It's still relatively playable, but it didn't change the way people thought about the opening in the way that 3...a6 in the Spanish did.  That's still my #1 innovation.
 


That is a good candidate indeed, like most you mentioned in this thread. Wasn't it Morphy's?
Let me back-up Keano's nomination of the Evans. What was new, was the idea to give up a pawn not for a lead in development, but for positional compensation (ie maintaining the centreformation d4-e4).
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Greatest Opening Ideas
Reply #55 - 10/06/07 at 16:11:01
Post Tools
A number of good ideas here!  And I would strongly agree with those advocates of 3...a6 in the Ruy Lopez.  But what about 3.Bb5 in the same?  Surely the idea of putting indirect pressure on the center is the more novel idea?   

More recently, the whole hypermodern school (already lots of mentions, I suppose) deserves attention.  Rather than any singular move, the idea of attacking the center with pieces rather than pawns merits some recognition, lest we miss the forest for the trees...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: Greatest Opening Ideas
Reply #54 - 10/06/07 at 15:35:50
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/06/07 at 04:50:08:
Historically, 1.e4 Nf6 occurred before 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6.  The Nimzo-Sicilian was considered to be a more correct way to play this Hypermodern idea until Alekhin came along and won some impressive games as Black after 1...Nf6.  So yes, they both came first!  Cool


You're right, Smyslov_Fan.  I hadn't known this, but it didn't take long to find the games that show this to be true.

In their notes to the Spielmann-Nimzowitsch game where the Nimzo-Sicilian was first played (as noted above by MNb), Tartakower and du Mont describe the opening as "a forerunner of Alekhine's defense."  Funny thing is that it never occurred to me to check whether Alekhine's Defense had been played before Alekhine came along!

One of the earlier games I found (Vienna 1905) had Albin playing 1...Nf6 in response to 1.e4 by Nimzowitsch! (There are also a few 19th century games which began 1.e4 Nf6)
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo