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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Stonewall attack (Read 22094 times)
Carld
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Re: Stonewall attack
Reply #26 - 01/16/08 at 11:40:02
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There's an interesting series of videos on You Tube entitled "Stonewall Legacy", that cover the Stonewall Attack.  The author is rated about 2000 (better than me), but he seems to know what he's talking about. I'm enjoying them myself and I'm considering taking up the SWA again as I've little time or energy for study these days.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Stonewall+Legacy&search=Search
  
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thibdb13
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Re: Stonewall attack
Reply #25 - 12/08/07 at 12:10:21
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[quote author=Black_Widow link=1195919731/15#23 date=1196281640][quote author=LeeRoth link=1195919731/15#22 date=1196270951][quote author=Michael Ayton link=1195919731/0#14 date=1196176763]
I've been looking in particular at 1 d4 d5 2 e3 Nf6 lines. Yaacov plays a Stonewall here even against ...g6: 3 Bd3 c5 4 c3 g6 5 f4 Bg7 6 Nf3 0-0 7 0-0. 
[/quote]

In this particular move order, I think he might actually prefer 5.dxc5 and play to hold the pawn.
[/quote]
I agree.

Going to the Stonewall Attack from the Bird move order, is more difficult, since in the most nice lines for white, Nf3 needs to be delayed, because of the control of e4. I think as a general rule, if white controls e4, he has an advantage. If white can take on c5 after a black fianchetto. And if black plays a double stonewall. 

So I think the stonewall attack (given the conditions above) gives white serious changes on an advantage. The only problem is how to get a good Stonewall Attack on the board. I only know methods, which allow black move orders, which are close to equalizing.
[/quote]
Personally, I prefer playing immediately Nf3 (at move 2). You may not have the upper ideal stonewall attack format but at least you can see a bit more of what black is going for. I understand it is less important when you are automatically playing e3, but if you want to go for a Leningrad Bird, 2.Nf3 is an important [i][color=#cc3300]zwischenzug[/color][/i].
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Stonewall attack
Reply #24 - 12/08/07 at 07:02:39
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I know someone who broke 2500 on ICC in bullet and blitz with a very limited repertoire built around the Stonewall as White and Black.  I think he once broke 2000 USCF in otb.

I don't like playing against the Stonewall as White or Black, but at least I feel comfortable enough to play for a win.  The only player I've lost to in a serious game in the last 15 years was rated 150 elo higher than me.  I offered a draw as Black in a completely drawn position but he refused and I fell apart.  The opening didn't win, my opponent's desire to beat me was enough.
  
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Re: Stonewall attack
Reply #23 - 11/28/07 at 20:27:20
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[quote author=LeeRoth link=1195919731/15#22 date=1196270951][quote author=Michael Ayton link=1195919731/0#14 date=1196176763]
I've been looking in particular at 1 d4 d5 2 e3 Nf6 lines. Yaacov plays a Stonewall here even against ...g6: 3 Bd3 c5 4 c3 g6 5 f4 Bg7 6 Nf3 0-0 7 0-0. 
[/quote]

In this particular move order, I think he might actually prefer 5.dxc5 and play to hold the pawn.
[/quote]
I agree.

Going to the Stonewall Attack from the Bird move order, is more difficult, since in the most nice lines for white, Nf3 needs to be delayed, because of the control of e4. I think as a general rule, if white controls e4, he has an advantage. If white can take on c5 after a black fianchetto. And if black plays a double stonewall. 

So I think the stonewall attack (given the conditions above) gives white serious changes on an advantage. The only problem is how to get a good Stonewall Attack on the board. I only know methods, which allow black move orders, which are close to equalizing.
  
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Re: Stonewall attack
Reply #22 - 11/28/07 at 17:29:11
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[quote author=Michael Ayton link=1195919731/0#14 date=1196176763]
I've been looking in particular at 1 d4 d5 2 e3 Nf6 lines. Yaacov plays a Stonewall here even against ...g6: 3 Bd3 c5 4 c3 g6 5 f4 Bg7 6 Nf3 0-0 7 0-0. 
[/quote]

In this particular move order, I think he might actually prefer 5.dxc5 and play to hold the pawn.

     
  
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Re: Stonewall attack
Reply #21 - 11/28/07 at 16:15:10
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[quote author=Michael Ayton link=1195919731/0#14 date=1196176763]
I've been looking in particular at 1 d4 d5 2 e3 Nf6 lines. Yaacov plays a Stonewall here even against ...g6: 3 Bd3 c5 4 c3 g6 5 f4 Bg7 6 Nf3 0-0 7 0-0. I'd be interested to know how strong/convincing people think this is compared with the alternatives. 
[/quote]

I like ... g6 and ... Bf5 set ups for Black against the Stonewall.  On a practical level it makes it very hard for White to get a k-side attack going.  I've played this way a few times as Black and often find Stonewall players get confused when they have to find a plan for themselves rather than just punting the usual k-side assault.
  

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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Re: Stonewall attack
Reply #20 - 11/27/07 at 22:52:49
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Hi Holbox,

You are preaching to the choir. I really was not mocking the book, else I would not be trying to buy it. I agree with your approach.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Re: Stonewall attack
Reply #19 - 11/27/07 at 21:08:58
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Quote:
Chess Advantage in Black and White  aka "The Chess Pacifict's Repertiore"


Enough to win at my level. Not the ultimate Nadorf or Sveshnikov sicilian..., nor a Marshall attack, just, a playable middle game. That's all, you should put the art to turn the position into a victory. Where is the pleasure when you win after 25 moves of theory? Even more, I don't think that the Marshall's Gambit in the triangle and 2...Qe7 in the Danish, as a little example, are part of a "Chess Pacifist's Repetoire". IMHO Kafuman's repertoire, is not about fashion, is just about wining at chess, no more no less.
  

"Ladran, luego cabalgamos", NN
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Re: Stonewall attack
Reply #18 - 11/27/07 at 16:55:58
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Holbox wrote on 11/27/07 at 15:40:30:
I think Kaufman's recomendation in Chess Advantage in Black and White against the SWA is impresive, even more, all his anti-d-pawn recomendations are really strong.

1.d4 d5 2.e3 Nf6 3.Bd6 Nc6!? threatening 4...e5 and..., 4...Nb4 followed, case the bishop moves,  by 5...Bf5 forcing 6.Na3. 



Chess Advantage in Black and White  aka "The Chess Pacifict's Repertiore" I was trying to buy this book recently, but unfortunately it has gone out of print. Chess books often seem to go out of print so quickly never to be printed again.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Re: Stonewall attack
Reply #17 - 11/27/07 at 16:11:54
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In thre Bird after d5 and Nc6, white can go for a Q-side fianchetto and may set his bishop on b5.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Stonewall attack
Reply #16 - 11/27/07 at 15:41:03
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Obviously 3.Bd3
  

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Re: Stonewall attack
Reply #15 - 11/27/07 at 15:40:30
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I think Kaufman's recomendation in Chess Advantage in Black and White against the SWA is impresive, even more, all his anti-d-pawn recomendations are really strong.

1.d4 d5 2.e3 Nf6 3.Bd6 Nc6!? threatening 4...e5 and..., 4...Nb4 followed, case the bishop moves,  by 5...Bf5 forcing 6.Na3. 

  

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Re: Stonewall attack
Reply #14 - 11/27/07 at 15:19:23
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Suppose we accept the Yaacov argument, that White is justified in setting up the Stonewall in certain cases -- chiefly if Black plays ...d5 and ...e6 -- but otherwise should choose independent, albeit related, lines (such as Y's anti-KID weapon of e3, Be2 + b3). The question arises, when else, if at all, is the Stonewall recommendable?

I've been looking in particular at 1 d4 d5 2 e3 Nf6 lines. Yaacov plays a Stonewall here even against ...g6: 3 Bd3 c5 4 c3 g6 5 f4 Bg7 6 Nf3 0-0 7 0-0. I'd be interested to know how strong/convincing people think this is compared with the alternatives. These are chiefly (I guess!) 3 Nf3 and:

3 ...e6 4 Bd3, then b3 with a Zukertort

3 ...Bf5 4 c4 c6 5 Nc3 with an e3-Slav

3 ...g6 and now 4 c4 c6 with a Schlechter-Slav, [i]or[/i] 4 Be2!? Bg7 5 0-0 0-0 with a variety of (potentially transpositional) possibilities: 6 c4, 6 Nbd2, 6 b4!?, 6 a4!?.

No doubt there's lots of room for subjectivity in all this. I myself rather like the 4 Be2 stuff (esp. along with space-gaining/prophylactic plans like b4+Bb2), which Kovacevic and others seem to use with effect, and of course at my humble level having a feel for the positions is much more important than theoretical status and is going to score points down at the Club. But I'd be v. interested to hear what people think about the status of lines like these, both per se and compared with the f4/...g6 Stonewall -- and also whether I've left any interesting White possibilities out.


  
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Re: Stonewall attack
Reply #13 - 11/27/07 at 08:31:04
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kylemeister wrote on 11/26/07 at 18:39:34:
It's odd how the word "literally" is sometimes not used literally ...

I would have thought that a good line/setup against the Stonewall would be one of the first things every player learns as (s)he starts to advance through the ranks.  Though I suppose a possible explanation is that the 2100 hadn't faced a Stonewall in so long that he forgot all about it.  

The 2100 in question did not expect 1.f4 to be plaid (his opponent never plaid this before in a serious game) and it was the first time he had to face the stonewall attack.
By the way, it is quite amusing to see how much players go for an e6-d5 setup (often with a knight on c6 without playing c5 before) against the Bird when litterature and "forum specialists" consider black has to play with a King side fianchetto (or to go for the From gambit). I think the Bird is still very underestimated and many lower players do not feel the need to prepare against it.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Stonewall attack
Reply #12 - 11/27/07 at 04:41:20
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Lots of fun with the word literally in Yes Prime Minister. Jim Hacker prone to using erroneously.
  
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