Poll
Poll closed Question: Who will win the world cup
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Karyakin    
  1 (4.2%)
Cheparinov    
  0 (0.0%)
Ponomariov    
  2 (8.3%)
Jakovenko    
  1 (4.2%)
Shirov    
  9 (37.5%)
Kamsky    
  5 (20.8%)
Carlsen    
  4 (16.7%)
Alekseev    
  2 (8.3%)




Total votes: 24
« Created by: thibdb13 on: 12/05/07 at 14:43:43 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) World cup (Read 24458 times)
IMJohnCox
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Re: World cup
Reply #49 - 12/13/07 at 12:15:57
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Doesn't 24 Rd6 Bf8 repeat? Shirov was obviously trying to win since he avoided the repetition a couple of moves later, but it looks like Kamsky's at least fine to me. This is normally a sign that I understand nothing, though.
  
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Dragan Glas
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Re: World cup
Reply #48 - 12/13/07 at 12:10:59
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Greetings,

Shirov - Kamsky (7.1)
http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=1458

I'd have preferred 24. Rd6 with the option of doubling and/or Nf5!? - obviously, 24 ..., f5? would be asking for it!

I'm concerned at Shirov's position though - and his being behind on time. I'm astonished that no-one's ever played 20 ..., Nc5 before!

As I feared, 28 ..., Ba6, threatening to/exchanging the bishops leaves the b- and a-pawns weak - and possibly gives Kamsky the passed-pawn advantage for the endgame.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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chk
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Re: World cup
Reply #47 - 12/12/07 at 11:05:46
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micawber, looks like you've already analysed this interesting endgame..

(just a hint Wink)
  

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MNb
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Re: World cup
Reply #46 - 12/11/07 at 21:33:42
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micawber wrote on 12/11/07 at 16:53:48:

People tend to forget that Shirov is an outstanding endgame player. 

Only when they don't own Fire on Board I. This contains some amazing endgames.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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micawber
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Re: World cup
Reply #45 - 12/11/07 at 16:53:48
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Shirov's winn was nice indeed. But I don't think it refutes the Marshall.
First of all, black can choose another move-order with 13...Qh4 when 14.g3,Qh3 15.Qf3 is bad because of 15...Bg4 at once. 
Instead 15.Re4! is another main line.
Secondly black can diverge into a variation, that's probably easier to defend after 13...Bf5 14.Qf3,Re8 is worth a look. 
Finally, I dont think the endgame was lost after the exchange of
queens. But Karjakin permitted himself a number of small errors, that cumulated in a lost position.
People tend to forget that Shirov is an outstanding endgame player. He showed it in this game, patiently enlarging his endgame advantage.
Further analyses will probably show that Shirov could have finished the game somewhat quicker by playing f5 earlier. But under rapid-game conditions it was a very practical decision to improve his position without committing himself to risky pawn-moves.

By the way I think the critical position occured after 31.Nb7!
I doubt that after Karjakin"s reply 31....Rc7 black can save himself
Instead I think maybe the strange 31...Kg6 is a good idea, in order
to force white's rook from the 8th rank (if white himself exchanges rooks black can practically force the exchange of his black squared bishop, leaving opposite coloured bishops).
  
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OstapBender
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Re: World cup
Reply #44 - 12/11/07 at 15:12:51
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IMJohnCox wrote on 12/11/07 at 13:33:25:
Gosh, who's the anti-Kamsky ranter?

Curiously enough, an American!

Quote:
I must say I can't quite understand Kamsky's popularity in some circles, except perhaps for the point that he's American and there's a lot of Americans about. It seems to me that he behaved terribly back in the day and that rather than undignified rowing about it with Short on the internet he'd do better to stand up and apologise.

Don't think it was so much Kamsky but his father who behaved terribly back in the day (circa 1994), but demanding an apology 13 years later seems a bit odd  -- to me at least but, then again, I'm an American.  Roll Eyes

And, as I recall, it was Short who instigated the "undignified rowing" on the Playchess server (last year during the Kramnik-Topalov match):
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1159464663/131#131

Kamsky did have more to say a bit later, though I wouldn't call it an apology:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1159464663/134#134

Mig Greengard's take on this (in case anyone cares):
http://www.chessninja.com/dailydirt/2006/10/kamskyshort_19942006.htm

I'm impressed by Kamsky's recent performances, but will be rooting for Shirov who surely deserves another shot at the title as his last shot, which he clearly earned, was stolen from him!
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
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thibdb13
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Re: World cup
Reply #43 - 12/11/07 at 14:58:36
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Bibs wrote on 12/11/07 at 13:47:26:
Really do hope Shirov gets it. Seems like a decent chap (not met him - but judging from his writings and DVDs if that counts in the slightest. guess not), plus massively lost out by 'winning' to get the non-title shot that time.

Gamsky plus The Thugfather really did behave abominably years ago. Not just to Short. 

Agreed with JC (John Cox, not the water-into-wine chap) that should apologise.

Remember playing Kamsky back when we were both 15. He won, not too surprisingly. Father a truly menacing presence, I do remember vividly. Noone seems to know what happened to Pa Kamsky. Brookside patio style? Or working a club door somewhere?

I have the impression Kamsky's behaviour is a lot better since he came back to chess (maybe due to his father's absence?)
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: World cup
Reply #42 - 12/11/07 at 14:37:16
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I got Cox's Alekhine book after browsing at the store, though never had intentions to play it. it was a real gem. am confident his Sveshnikov book is good too. 

Recently watched Van Wely's DVD. Lots of exciting games, but being inexperienced to this opening I keep feeling that 9. Nd5 looks good for White (the knight on d5 seems invincible!?). 

Re Karjakin-Shirov today, pity that it was a draw, as Shirov deserved to win...  a disaster was waiting to happen on the h-file, but Shirov was always one step ahead.  Shocked
  
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Bibs
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Re: World cup
Reply #41 - 12/11/07 at 14:06:28
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Inn2
Yes Cox's Sveshnikov book is impressive. Worth purchasing. Am a relative novice in the line, but feel I can spot conscientious writers, solid research, lucid explanatory prose and well-put-together texts fairly well.

A humdinger of a game. Never seen such an endgame before. Anyone with an endgame Nalimov care to comment?

Shirov delivering some hammer blows to the Marshall as he did to the Najdorf PP. Quite a workshop he must have there. Wonder if he uses Santa's elves when there is non-festive downtime.
  
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lnn2
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Re: World cup
Reply #40 - 12/11/07 at 13:57:35
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Bibs wrote on 12/11/07 at 13:47:26:
Really do hope Shirov gets it. Seems like a decent chap (not met him - but judging from his writings and DVDs if that counts in the slightest. guess not), plus massively lost out by 'winning' to get the non-title shot that time.


Yes Shirov seems endearingly down-to-earth in DVDs. was never a fan of hack-and-slash play, but his DVDs made me a fan, and he's been playing very well this year. The sole 2nd place at Tal Memorial must mean something.

A Shirov-Topalov match is for sure more exciting than Kamsky-Topalov (no contest imho)
  
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Re: World cup
Reply #39 - 12/11/07 at 13:51:42
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The first game of the rapid tie break between Shirov and Karjakin was a fantastic fight in the Sveshnikov!!   Shocked 

John: thanks to that game you have now one more customer for your sveshnikov book  Smiley

  
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Bibs
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Re: World cup
Reply #38 - 12/11/07 at 13:47:26
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Really do hope Shirov gets it. Seems like a decent chap (not met him - but judging from his writings and DVDs if that counts in the slightest. guess not), plus massively lost out by 'winning' to get the non-title shot that time.

Gamsky plus The Thugfather really did behave abominably years ago. Not just to Short. 

Agreed with JC (John Cox, not the water-into-wine chap) that should apologise.

Remember playing Kamsky back when we were both 15. He won, not too surprisingly. Father a truly menacing presence, I do remember vividly. Noone seems to know what happened to Pa Kamsky. Brookside patio style? Or working a club door somewhere?
  
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Re: World cup
Reply #37 - 12/11/07 at 13:33:25
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Gosh, who's the anti-Kamsky ranter?

I must say I can't quite understand Kamsky's popularity in some circles, except perhaps for the point that he's American and there's a lot of Americans about. It seems to me that he behaved terribly back in the day and that rather than undignified rowing about it with Short on the internet he'd do better to stand up and apologise. Until he does then personally I'll be rooting for his opponents - unless they're Topalov, of course.

  
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Re: World cup
Reply #36 - 12/11/07 at 13:19:28
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Shirov-Karjakin [C89]
FIDE World Cup Khanty-Mansiysk (6.4), 11.12.2007
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0–0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0–0 8.c3 d5 9.exd5 Nxd5 10.Nxe5 Nxe5 11.Rxe5 c6 12.d3 Bd6 13.Re1 Bf5 14.Qf3 Qh4 15.g3 Qh3 16.Bxd5 cxd5 17.Qxd5 Rad8 18.Qg2

This is the same variation Shirov used to beat Javokenko last week.  In this game Karjakin varied with 18...Qxg2 (instead of 18...Qh5) but suffered a similar fate.  Shirov just continued to take pawns...

Is the Marshall is in trouble?

Nice game by Shirov.  I'm glad to see the "old" guys will be duking it out for the chance to face Toppy (although I had predicted Carlsen to win in the poll).
  

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Re: World cup
Reply #35 - 12/11/07 at 12:58:38
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thibdb13 wrote on 12/11/07 at 12:46:32:
Shirov just won the match against Karyakin.
He'll play in the final against Kamsky.

Hmm, quite interesting. 

The 2 players who beat Kramnik in a match have to decide who plays against the player that lost his match against Kramnik....

I'll be rooting for Shirov, though Kamsky has made a big impression on me.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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