Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ??? (Read 14611 times)
MagicTrick
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #23 - 01/14/08 at 16:47:22
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Nowadays it is hard to win as black if you really need to, but your opponent really needs a draw and he knows what he is doing. This is not the case with just 1. e4 e5, but also with some anti-sicilians, the whole scandinavian/caro-kann complex, Tarrasch French and Morphy system against Pirc. It gets completely different if your opponent doesn't know what he's doing or if he also plays for a win. Just avoid Petroff, play Two Knights Game, Bc5 against Scotch, ef against King's Gambit, and don't be afraid of topical lines. The only exception is Spanish, where for example some lines of Marshall are a forced draw and Chigorin provides almost equal positions where White can pressure Black as long as he wants to. I always play 1. e4 e5 except blitz games and it really offers fine possibilities.
  
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Sacapawn
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #22 - 01/11/08 at 20:02:42
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...or even in 3 moves!
1.e4 e5 2.Nh3 Qh4 3.Ke2 Qxe4#
  
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #21 - 01/11/08 at 18:59:42
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You may even mate White in 6 moves!
1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Be2 Bc5 4.h3 Qh4+ 5.g3 Qxg3+ 6.Kf1 Qf2#  Grin

or how about a 7 move variation:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.h3 Qh4+ 4.g3 Qxg3+ 5.Ke2 Qf2+ 6.Kd3 Qd4+ 7.Ke2 Qxe4#  Wink
  
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Girkassa
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #20 - 01/10/08 at 09:46:34
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saubhikr wrote on 01/09/08 at 02:41:22:
Girkisa,
Thanks a lot of a thorough comments on this. I bet its coming from somebody who is playing this for long. I started preparing the e5. Let see how it goes....its a lot of theory though.

Any idea how long it might take to go through all before I give it a try in a tournament game ?

Can I just go through the e5 opening book by Tony and try my luck ?
I haven' sen it a I wmeber of Sicilian and other  Section Wll become mber to e5 section this weekkend


When I'm learning a new opening, I'm always using books in order to learn the basics, then I search Chessbase and Chess Publishing to see if there are any novelties and/or different opinions, and supplement with some analysis on my own. I don't know how it will be to use Chess Publishing as your primary source, as I've never tried that myself.

Since there are so many different ways for White to challenge 1...e5, it's easy to get lost in the jungle; therefore, my recommendation would be to use a repertoire book in the beginning, in order to learn one reply to each of White's possibilities. Then you can later supply by studying alternatives to the lines you don't like.

It's hard to say how long it will take before you can try 1...e5 in a tournament game, as it depends on how effectively you study it, how hard it is to learn the lines you choose and how well you think you have to know it before trying it (which, I believe, is individual; some players are better than others at finding useful moves when out of book). My guess would be "somewhere between one and three months."
  
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #19 - 01/09/08 at 16:18:50
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You're asking if 1... e5 is a good move to play for a win ? I would advice to look at some Nezhmetdinov's games as Black. He was one (maybe "The") of the best tacticians. His answer to 1. e4 ? Always ... e5.
For example, look at this game Wink 

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1102130
  
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battleangel
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #18 - 01/09/08 at 10:05:56
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... e5 is probably the best reply to 1.e4.
But if you really want to win you have to play the sicilian.
That is why I play both Smiley
  
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saubhikr
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #17 - 01/09/08 at 02:41:22
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Girkisa,
Thanks a lot of a thorough comments on this. I bet its coming from somebody who is playing this for long. I started preparing the e5. Let see how it goes....its a lot of theory though.

Any idea how long it might take to go through all before I give it a try in a tournament game ?

Can I just go through the e5 opening book by Tony and try my luck ?
I haven' sen it a I wmeber of Sicilian and other  Section Wll become mber to e5 section this weekkend
  
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Girkassa
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #16 - 01/08/08 at 08:57:05
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Yeah, Hebden has been a real inspirer to me too. It's amazing how he just plays natural chess and suddenly ends up winning seemingly drawish positions.

As for my honest thoughts about 1...e5: Having played it for seven years, my experience is that it's as good as any other opening, and if I'm the stronger player, I usually win. Of course, I concede some draws (and losses) now and then - but that would be the case with every other opening as well! Perhaps it's not the best choice in a must win-situation against a stronger opponent who is content with a draw, but since your main concern is weaker opponents, I'd say 1...e5 is no worse than other openings.

In my view, the Sicilian may give you more chances to win right from the opening, but also more chances to lose to a good preparation. 1...e5 is less likely to give you a better position from the opening, but once you know how to deal with the dangerous-looking sidelines, you're also less likely to end up clearly worse. Usually you'll get a pretty equal position where the stronger player will win the game.

Oh, and I could add that during my 1...e5 career, I can only remember one game where the opening completely ruined my winning chances (except for a couple where I simply went wrong and quickly lost). In that game, a Ruy Lopez, I dived right into my opponent's 20-move preparation and ended up in an endgame where he had the only winning chances. I had several ways to avoid the endgame, so I wouldn't blame 1...e5 for that...
  
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saubhikr
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #15 - 01/07/08 at 13:55:35
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Tony,
I got it. Actually the last line (money part) caught my eye and I missed your first part. I have started going through the games and hopefully by end of Jan will be able to play my first e5 game.

Note: I didn't know Mark Hebden is an e5  expert. He was my hero for the D4 uncommon openings (like Tarzan attack etc). So these two does match !! 

Thanks to everybody for giving me support to play e5. I have to also convert my membership to gold so that I can see the e5 updates.
  
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #14 - 01/07/08 at 11:34:55
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saubhikr wrote on 01/07/08 at 01:05:29:

But you bypassed the question cleverly. Now that I explained, can you answer it now ?

I don't bypass questions! Angry I thought you asked whether I "really believe one can win consistently against weaker opponents." with 1...e5, which I have already answered twice!
If you weren't asking that then what were you asking? Undecided
Incidentally, this Forum has a strict no adds policy!
  
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saubhikr
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #13 - 01/07/08 at 01:05:29
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Tony,
Chess is not just for money ... I believe many successfull players could have earned much more if they would have chosen alternatives. Its the love for the game. Software is my primary profession and will stay that way. What I wanted to mean was, if I think I am making progress in chess, I would spend more time and effort there and try to get better. If not, will just stay as a spectator. Embarrassed

But you bypassed the question cleverly. Now that I explained, can you answer it now ?
  
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #12 - 01/07/08 at 00:18:11
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Davies' comment (if it's the one in his e4 e5 book) refers specifically to the Ruy Lopez.  I'm not sure the same benefit comes from playing 1...e5 if your opponents seldom venture into the main lines.  In fact, you can study the Lopez and play through master games on your own to gain insight into positional play without switching to 1...e5.   

Also, Davies mentioned that he had been playing the Modern and Pirc to avoid theory and therefore had missed out on part of his chess education.  If a player has been playing main line Sicilians, I'm not sure that he's losing much in the way of chess knowledge.  Sicilians can lead to tactical or positional play and are generally considered to be very sound (at least most variations).   

Just my two cents,
Scott

"Don't feel obliged to go along with Davies' comments re... e5, though I acknowledge this is a widely quoted notion."


 
  

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Re: For Tony Kosten: Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #11 - 01/07/08 at 00:14:50
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Of course you can beat weaker opponents with 1...e5, in fact I would say it is possibly the easiest and quickest way - look at some of Mark Hebden's games if you don't believe me!

saubhikr wrote on 01/06/08 at 22:50:15:

If I can't make good progress in next few months, I will most likely quit chess foreever and focus on my IT career only.


There is no money in chess, I would definitely focus on my IT career if I still had the choice!! Wink
  
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saubhikr
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For Tony Kosten: Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #10 - 01/06/08 at 22:50:15
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Rossia,
Got your email. Thanks a lot. Its very useful.

Tony,
I really respect you. Made a career out of your "Dynamic Engilish" book. When I was in India, I actually learned Nimzo with your "New Ideas in Nimzo" book (so funny - didn't know the opening before and started with new ideas !). 

I will distrub you once more - It will take me who;e 2 months to pick up e4-e5 and you really believe one can win consistently against weaker opponents. If I can't make good progress in next few months, I will most likely quit chess foreever and focus on my IT career only. So please let me know one more time what you think. A few more lines of yours may make big difference for me.
  
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #9 - 01/06/08 at 20:09:58
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saubhikr see your e.mail inbox, bye
  
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Re: Question for TONY KOSTEN: Win with e5 reply to e4
Reply #8 - 01/06/08 at 17:42:34
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saubhikr wrote on 01/06/08 at 16:48:09:
I liked your comments in the French where you mentioned how difficult it was to win against French Exchange and you had a lot many such games against lower rated players. I still gave it a try and found you were right.

But whereas the open e-file and symmetrical structure are a long-term problem in the Exchange French, such problems rarely exist in 1 e4 e5 openings. At least I have never really had any problems trying to win as Black, except in one or two lines which are easily avoided. Smiley
  
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #7 - 01/06/08 at 17:39:24
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It seems to me that when GMs "need to win" against other GMs as Black (for example to win a match, or to move up in standing in a tournament), they usually trot out the Sicilian, and if not the Sicilian then some other counter-attacking type of opening.

However, against lower-rated opponents (Experts, FMs) it seems like GMs try to avoid messy, unclear, unbalanced positions where a single slip can cost you the game.

I think Simon Webb addressed this issue in his book Chess for Tigers.

My impression is that GMs seem to think that in principle it is somewhat more difficult to win with 1...e5 -- but it is also somewhat easier not to lose.
  
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saubhikr
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Question for TONY KOSTEN: Win with e5 reply to e4 ?
Reply #6 - 01/06/08 at 16:48:09
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Tony,

I liked your comments in the French where you mentioned how difficult it was to win against French Exchange and you had a lot many such games against lower rated players. I still gave it a try and found you were right.

Tony, please let us know what do you think for this issue
  
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #5 - 01/06/08 at 15:05:07
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Yes, naturally.

If you understand the resulting positions better than your opponent. I concur with KM here. As in any opening. Did you think before asking this question? For long?

Don't feel obliged to go along with Davies' comments re... e5, though I acknowledge this is a widely quoted notion.

Some do, some don't. E.g. Nakamura san chugs along happily having never done so. 





  
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saubhikr
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #4 - 01/06/08 at 14:53:00
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Thanks for your comments on this. My id is saubhikr@yahoo.com and blog is http://uncommonchess.blogspot.com/. Please send your games in there.

Is it true that reply e5 help one to become better player as Davies mentioned ?? Can you give some pointer on this ?
  
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #3 - 01/06/08 at 14:08:00
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saubhikr wrote on 01/06/08 at 02:39:44:

Does black really have winning chances if he replies 1.e4 with e5 ? 

Yes, if he withing the limits of soundness choses the most ambitious replies; no Petrov but 2...Nc6, no Italian proper but 3...Nf6 etcetera. It means though that Black must be able to play all kind of different positions; sometimes play a gambit himself (3...Nf6 4.Ng5 d5), sometimes defend against it (2.f4 exf4), sometimes play a long manoeuvring game (2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d3 Na5 or Bb4).
  

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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #2 - 01/06/08 at 08:47:12
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Dear friend,

If you played Dragon I'm assured that you like messy and highly tactical positions, and I do not see a reason why you should not play Open Games. Even I'm switching from Najdorf to Open Games. In every line of Open Games you have very very dangerous and furious lines.

Send me your e-mail via private message and I will send you some material!!!!!!!  Wink Wink
  
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Re: Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
Reply #1 - 01/06/08 at 03:39:31
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My honest answer would be some combination of thoughts like:

oh, come on
certainly you can win if you understand what's going on better than your opponents
if you're interested in it, look at some good games/books and start playing it
the question about how to win in the equalish positions is impossibly general
  
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saubhikr
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Can we REALLY Win with e5 reply to e4 ???
01/06/08 at 02:39:44
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I was a sicilain dragon player, then tried Scandinavian, then French. I am currently rated 1980 USCF. Working hard to improve my chess understanding and break into 2100 rating. One key question I need to decide - What to play in response to 1.e4. I read Nigel Davies' comment that you get better if you play e5 to e4, you learn better chess (not sure about how though). But I see most of the GM games either end in draw or white wins. Not that many black wins with e5 response to e4 ( I made my honest comments here). The positions seem very equalish/drawish - compare that with double edged equal chances of sicilian - black may not much chance to win (unless white drops a piece or blunders a pawn). But something inside me pushing me to play e5, not sure what...may be because I never played it or not and wanted to know how it feels. But I am afraid that after spending a lot of time learning this, whether I will concede a lot of draws to lower rated opponents (80% of my opponents are rated lower in the tournaments I play).

My question to all - please give me an honest answer...

Does black really have winning chances if he replies 1.e4 with e5 ? 

If yes, how does he get it (just the ideas) in the equalish positions...


Thanks a lot
Souvik Roychoudhury
Milwaukee, WI
  
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