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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chigorin defense...playable? (Read 27261 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Chigorin defense...playable?
Reply #31 - 05/04/08 at 14:28:35
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If you are even considering Morozevich's book, get it!

This isn't just a book about how to play the Chigorin defense, it is about how one of the most imaginative and best players in the world today thinks about his game.  I read the book and was humbled into realising I don't really understand chess.  

Moro's ideas are so fantastic, so brilliant, that they will help any chess player below his own caliber (and probably even those rare few who do play at his level, too).  As a repertoire book, it is undoubtedly useful, but as an inspiration, it is one of the best books of the last two or three years.
  
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TimS
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Re: Chigorin defense...playable?
Reply #30 - 05/04/08 at 09:59:32
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CheckMate wrote on 05/03/08 at 15:26:04:
I have Bronznik's book on the Chigorin; this one is very good I think. What have Morozevich and Wisnewski to contribute that is not already in Bronznik. Has any of the critical lines been reassessed? Should I invest in one of these newer books?

My view is that Morozevich is well worth getting because in effect you are being given a repertoire by a GM who happens to be the world's greatest living player of the Chigorin
Wisnewski is also worth it for his views. He is an IM who plays the Chigorin. He wrote his book before Morozevich's was published which has the BENEFIT that he couldn't rely on the GM for assessments, so it's interesting to contrast his views with Morozevich's.
Of course it all comes down to how much you can afford and are prepared to spend on chess books, but you certainly shouldn't ignore these books on the ground that they won't give you anything you can't find in Bronznik's (which, as numerous reviewers have said, is also very good - I have the English and first German editions!)
  
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Ivan
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Re: Chigorin defense...playable?
Reply #29 - 05/04/08 at 09:29:19
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I was just wondering: in the position after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6, is 3.e4 playable? 3...dc4 transposes to the Queen's Gambit Accepted, whereas 3...de4 4.d5 Ne5 5.Nc3 looks like good compensation for White; compare with the variation 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 de4 4.d5.
  
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Re: Chigorin defense...playable?
Reply #28 - 05/03/08 at 19:47:19
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I had the Chigorin books from Morozevich and Bronznik.
The one from Bronznik was better, in my opinion.
but still the morozevich book has also some other interesting variations.
  
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CheckMate
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Re: Chigorin defense...playable?
Reply #27 - 05/03/08 at 15:26:04
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I have Bronznik's book on the Chigorin; this one is very good I think. What have Morozevich and Wisnewski to contribute that is not already in Bronznik. Has any of the critical lines been reassessed? Should I invest in one of these newer books?
  
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Chevalier
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Re: Chigorin defense...playable?
Reply #26 - 04/11/08 at 23:11:51
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Regarding the 3.Nc3 line, I would prefer Morozevich/Barsky's recommendation of 3...dc4, where they show that Black has good chances of equalising in a complicated and double-edged game. 

In case you are wondering whether to buy Morozevich's or Wisnewski's book, then this is my opinion: Morozevich covers the Chigorin in more detail, with more illustrative games (this is because there are not only more pages on the Chigorin, but larger pages), but the advantage of Wisnewski's book is that he covers 1.e4 Nc6 very well, and also does a good job on meeting 1.c4 and 1.Nf3. Given that Christoph had less pages than Morozevich and was writing to a wider audience, I think he did a good job on his Chigorin lines as well. Also note that Morozevich's book is more expensive and on one opening than Wisnewski's on a complete repertoire.

Conclusion: If you are only interested in the Chigorin, buy Morozevich's book. If you are interested in learning both the Chigorin and 1.e4 Nc6, then you would be best advised to buy both books.
  

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Re: Chigorin defense...playable?
Reply #25 - 04/02/08 at 13:15:42
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hi smyslovfan

instead of 5...Bb4, what do you recommend after 5...Bd6? I think 6.Bg3 is a recommended move, but I cannot see why white has an advantage after that move.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Chigorin defense...playable?
Reply #24 - 04/02/08 at 12:12:11
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Flicking through Fritz's openings book, I found the following line of the Chigorin which features quite an amusing transposition:

1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nc6 3 Nf3 e5!? 4 exd5 Qxd5 5 Nc3 Bb4 6 e3 exd4 7 exd4 Bg4 8 Be2 Bxf3 9 Bxf3 Qc4!

Of course, 3 Nc3 is far more critical than 3 Nf3.  I think in the 5...e5 line mentioned above, a large part of Black's compensation lies in White's shattered pawn structure as well as the slightly better development, though Fritz 10 doesn't think much of Black's compensation either.
  
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TimS
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Re: Chigorin defense...playable?
Reply #23 - 03/30/08 at 14:26:58
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/30/08 at 13:44:10:
TimS, 

I trust Wisnewski over any computer program on this one.  While I agree that 4...Nxd5 followed by 5...e5 just does not inspire me, I would be more inclined to play it knowing that the computer doesn't understand it at all.

I play the position from the White side, and although I believe this variation doesn't stand up to scrutiny, I would not relish trying to prove it over the board against a well-prepared master.

Part of the beauty of the Chigorin Defense is that there are many ways for Black to complicate matters that defy received wisdom.  This is especially true of wisdom received from a computer program.



I've never faced the line OTB but here's a corr game played at IECG:
Mark Martys (2208) - Tim Spanton (2164)
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Nf3 e5 6.dxe5 Bb4 7.Bd2 Nxc3 8.bxc3 Bc5 9.Bf4 O-O 10.e3 Qe7 11.Be2 Bg4 12.O-O h6 13.Qc2 Rfe8 14.Rfd1 Rab8 15.Rab1 Bb6 16.Rd5 Rbd8 17.Rxd8 Rxd8 18.h3 Be6 19.a4 Bd5 20.Bg3 Re8 21.Nd4 Nxe5 22.a5 Bxd4 23.cxd4 Nc6 24.Rb5 Be4 25.Qc4 a6 26.Rc5 Rd8 27.Bf1 Rd7 28.Qb3 Kh7 29.Kh2 b5 30.f3 Nxa5 31.Qc3 Bd5 32.Bd3+ g6 33.Qxa5 Qxe3 34.Rxc7 Rxc7 35.Qxc7 Qe8 36.Be4 Be6 37.Be5 1-0
A bit one-sided to say the least
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Chigorin defense...playable?
Reply #22 - 03/30/08 at 13:44:10
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TimS, 

I trust Wisnewski over any computer program on this one.  While I agree that 4...Nxd5 followed by 5...e5 just does not inspire me, I would be more inclined to play it knowing that the computer doesn't understand it at all.

I play the position from the White side, and although I believe this variation doesn't stand up to scrutiny, I would not relish trying to prove it over the board against a well-prepared master.

Part of the beauty of the Chigorin Defense is that there are many ways for Black to complicate matters that defy received wisdom.  This is especially true of wisdom received from a computer program.


  
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TimS
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Re: Chigorin defense...playable?
Reply #21 - 03/30/08 at 10:19:06
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realpolitik wrote on 03/28/08 at 12:27:31:
@Tims: black can play 5..Bf5 instead of e5 for starters. this line has been criticised by several authors but i think its not so bad for black. 
in the line that you give, black has some compensation for the pawn, whether its enough for a full pawn or not is debatable. its a game of chess in an unbalanced position where white is a bit better.

5...Bf5 is very interesting. I must take a good look at it.
But I still don't like the 5...e5 line. After 8...Bc5, Fritz 11 reckons White's advantage is .85 of a pawn. It looks even bigger to me!
  
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nyoke
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Re: Chigorin defense...playable?
Reply #20 - 03/28/08 at 19:09:50
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Excuse me, but I find the question in the header a bit ... ridiculous. If Moro can play it against his peers it takes a fairly academical definition of 'playable' to conclude it isn't.
  
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realpolitik
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Re: Chigorin defense...playable?
Reply #19 - 03/28/08 at 12:27:31
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@Tims: black can play 5..Bf5 instead of e5 for starters. this line has been criticised by several authors but i think its not so bad for black. 
in the line that you give, black has some compensation for the pawn, whether its enough for a full pawn or not is debatable. its a game of chess in an unbalanced position where white is a bit better.
  
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TimS
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Re: Chigorin defense...playable?
Reply #18 - 03/24/08 at 16:51:01
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I realise that replying to one's own post is probably bad netiquette but does anyone have any improvements for Black in this line, ie 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd Nxd5 5.Nf3 e5 6.dxe Bb4 7.Bd2 Nxc3 8.bxc Bc5, or am I just wrong in thinking Black's comp insufficient?
  
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TimS
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Re: Chigorin defense...playable?
Reply #17 - 03/18/08 at 12:04:43
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[quote And as already stated by realpolitik, white can generally avoid all this with 3.- Nf6, which is actually what Wisnewski recommends in his play 1...Nc6!.

[/quote]

The problem with 3...Nf6, as I discovered in a corr game, is the rarely played but apparently very strong 4.cxd Nxd5 5.Nf3. Now Wisnewski gives 5...e5! 6.dxe Bb4 7.Bd2 Nxc3 8.bxc Bc5, claiming that Black's development lead and better pawn structure are compensation for the pawn. Bronznik gives the same analysis.
To say the least, I don't believe it! OK, those players are much stronger than me, but Black's compensation seems worth much less than a pawn.
« Last Edit: 03/18/08 at 13:56:35 by TimS »  
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