ChessPub Forum - 3. Nc3 or 3. Nf3 in the Slav?

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Poll

Question: Do you prefer 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3 in the Slav, and why?

3.Nc3 - 3.Nf3 is slightly more commital

1 (2.1%)

3.Nc3 - keeps options open (eg Marshall)

10 (21.3%)

3.Nc3 - less Black options move 4 (no 4...dc4)

10 (21.3%)

3.Nf3 - 'everyone' plays it

6 (12.8%)

3.Nf3 - I don't like 3.Nc3 dc4 & 3...e5

10 (21.3%)

3.Nf3 - White doesn't have to play Nc3

10 (21.3%)

Total votes: 47

« Last Modified by: DoubledPawns on: 02/23/08 at 20:15:03 »

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3. Nc3 or 3. Nf3 in the Slav? (Read 18330 times)

Scarblac Full Member Offline Chess Addict Posts: 190 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/17/07 Gender:	Re: 3. Nc3 or 3. Nf3 in the Slav? Reply #9 - 02/23/08 at 08:44:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	I play 3.Nc3 mostly to be able to play the Marshall gambit against the "Triangle" (1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 e6 4.e4). I answer 3... Nf6 with 4.Nf3.


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ErictheRed God Member Offline USCF National Master Posts: 2534 Location: USA Joined: 10/02/05	Re: 3. Nc3 or 3. Nf3 in the Slav? Reply #8 - 02/23/08 at 06:40:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thank you, Kylemeister! Yes, my point was that 3.Nc3 avoids "The Slav" (notice the quotation marks), 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 dxc4. If White is willing to play the main-line Slav (see above), then there really isn't any point in playing 3.Nc3, it just gives Black more options. I'm not going to go into all the other stuff here; I just wanted to help clarify why White would choose 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3. Generally, 3.Nc3 avoids the pure, main-line Slav and usually heads for a Semi-Slav after 3...Nf6 4.e3 e6 5.Nf3. Obviously Black can play 3...dxc4, 3...e5, or 4...g6 instead of going into the Semi-Slav if he so chooses.


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4974 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: 3. Nc3 or 3. Nf3 in the Slav? Reply #7 - 02/23/08 at 04:36:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	DoubledPawns wrote on 02/23/08 at 03:57:36: ErictheRed wrote on 02/23/08 at 02:44:32: I disagree that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 dxc4 is at all inferior. But anyhow, the reason to prefer 3.Nc3 just boils down to this: what does White play after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6? If he just goes for the main line with 4.Nf3, there's no reason to prefer playing 3.Nc3. However, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3!?, Black has no way of getting a main-line Slav. 4...Bf5?! is not good, 4...e6 it's a Semi-Slav, and 4...g6 is a Schlecter Slav (considered somewhat passive). So basically White avoids what most people consider to be "The Slav." Your point about not being able to get a main line Slav is incorrect. After 4.e3 e6 5.Nf3 Nbd7, we have transposed to the Semi-Slav, which is in fact the main line Slav. However, it is classified in the Encyclopedia of Chess Openings and the Mega Database 2008 Opening Key under the rare move order 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 c6 5.e3 Nbd7. Were you referring to the 4...dc4 variation or the 4...e6 5.Bg5 variation? The former one, while one of the main lines, is under a bit of a cloud these days, while 4...e6 5.Bg5 is actually not played as much as 5.e3, but it is the most fashionable line nowadays (mainly due to the efforts of Anand and many other strong GMs). In conclusion: there are four "main lines" in the Slav as of now: 4.Nf3 e6 5.e3, 5.Bg5, 4.Nf3 dc4, and probably even 4...a6 (the Chebanenko) is something of a main line nowadays. So your point, while inexact, remains valid. What I think you meant to say was that by playing 4.e3, White cuts out the 4...dc4 variation, but cannot play the 5.Bg5 variation against 4...e6. Returning to 3...dc4: How does Black obtain equality after 4.e4 b5 (4...e5 is not as strong) 5.a4 b4 and now 6.Nce2, with the idea of Nf3, Ng3 and Bc4, winning back the pawn with a superior pawn structure and stronger centre? Oh for Pete's sake, the traditional distinction is between the mainline/classical Slav where Black aims to get his QB out (as in ...dc and ...Bf5) and the Semi-Slav (with early ...e6). As to how Black might equalize after 6. Nce2, one could start by looking at ECO, which cites e.g. Nikolic-van Wely, Dutch ch 1999 and Gelfand-Huzman, Israel 2000. It doesn't share your assurance that 4...e5 is worse, however.


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DoubledPawns Senior Member Offline 1.a3 e5 2.Nc3 Ba3 3.Ne4 Bf8 4.Ra5 Ke7 5.Re5# Posts: 283 Joined: 02/01/08	Re: 3. Nc3 or 3. Nf3 in the Slav? - Poll Reply #6 - 02/23/08 at 04:10:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Since there are varying opinions on this question, I thought it appropriate to include a poll on it. In spite of my personal preference of 3.Nc3, I am expecting a majority of votes for 3.Nf3 because it is more popular both overall and nowadays. That is why I included the reasoning behind 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3 in order to hopefully contribute to the discussion.

	Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something - Plato
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DoubledPawns Senior Member Offline 1.a3 e5 2.Nc3 Ba3 3.Ne4 Bf8 4.Ra5 Ke7 5.Re5# Posts: 283 Joined: 02/01/08	Re: 3. Nc3 or 3. Nf3 in the Slav? Reply #5 - 02/23/08 at 03:57:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	ErictheRed wrote on 02/23/08 at 02:44:32: I disagree that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 dxc4 is at all inferior. But anyhow, the reason to prefer 3.Nc3 just boils down to this: what does White play after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6? If he just goes for the main line with 4.Nf3, there's no reason to prefer playing 3.Nc3. However, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3!?, Black has no way of getting a main-line Slav. 4...Bf5?! is not good, 4...e6 it's a Semi-Slav, and 4...g6 is a Schlecter Slav (considered somewhat passive). So basically White avoids what most people consider to be "The Slav." Your point about not being able to get a main line Slav is incorrect. After 4.e3 e6 5.Nf3 Nbd7, we have transposed to the Semi-Slav, which is in fact the main line Slav. However, it is classified in the Encyclopedia of Chess Openings and the Mega Database 2008 Opening Key under the rare move order 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 c6 5.e3 Nbd7. Were you referring to the 4...dc4 variation or the 4...e6 5.Bg5 variation? The former one, while one of the main lines, is under a bit of a cloud these days, while 4...e6 5.Bg5 is actually not played as much as 5.e3, but it is the most fashionable line nowadays (mainly due to the efforts of Anand and many other strong GMs). In conclusion: there are four "main lines" in the Slav as of now: 4.Nf3 e6 5.e3, 5.Bg5, 4.Nf3 dc4, and probably even 4...a6 (the Chebanenko) is something of a main line nowadays. So your point, while inexact, remains valid. What I think you meant to say was that by playing 4.e3, White cuts out the 4...dc4 variation, but cannot play the 5.Bg5 variation against 4...e6. Returning to 3...dc4: How does Black obtain equality after 4.e4 b5 (4...e5 is not as strong) 5.a4 b4 and now 6.Nce2, with the idea of Nf3, Ng3 and Bc4, winning back the pawn with a superior pawn structure and stronger centre?

	Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something - Plato
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ErictheRed God Member Offline USCF National Master Posts: 2534 Location: USA Joined: 10/02/05	Re: 3. Nc3 or 3. Nf3 in the Slav? Reply #4 - 02/23/08 at 02:44:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	I disagree that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 dxc4 is at all inferior. But anyhow, the reason to prefer 3.Nc3 just boils down to this: what does White play after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6? If he just goes for the main line with 4.Nf3, there's no reason to prefer playing 3.Nc3. However, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3!?, Black has no way of getting a main-line Slav. 4...Bf5?! is not good, 4...e6 it's a Semi-Slav, and 4...g6 is a Schlecter Slav (considered somewhat passive). So basically White avoids what most people consider to be "The Slav."


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DoubledPawns Senior Member Offline 1.a3 e5 2.Nc3 Ba3 3.Ne4 Bf8 4.Ra5 Ke7 5.Re5# Posts: 283 Joined: 02/01/08	Re: 3. Nc3 or 3. Nf3 in the Slav? Reply #3 - 02/23/08 at 02:28:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Another reason White would want to play 3.Nf3 is if he wants to play the "Slow Slav" variation: 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3, where in some variations White postpones the development of his b1-knight. Also, Black does not have the option of 3...e5 (as after 3.Nc3), and 3...dc4 is simply worse for Black according to theory, but otherwise I don't see why 3.Nf3 is any better than 3.Nc3. The main advantage of 3.Nc3 is that if he wishes, he can avoid the very solid variation 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dc4 variation by playing 4.e3 (which however prevents Bg5 after 4...e6). Basically, the choice between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3 is more or less a give and take question.

	Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something - Plato
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Girkassa Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 433 Joined: 04/07/07	Re: 3. Nc3 or 3. Nf3 in the Slav? Reply #2 - 02/23/08 at 00:43:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Exigentsky, you have indeed pointed out the main reasons 3.Nc3 is not that popular - firstly 3...dxc4 and secondly 3...e5 (although the latter is not considered that good). It's not obvious that 3...dxc4 is any problem for White, but if White is heading for the main line Slav anyway, Black doesn't have as many ways to avoid it after 3.Nf3 as after 3.Nc3. Thus, 3.Nf3 restricts Black's options if White wants to meet 3...Nf6 with 4.Nc3.


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drkodos God Member Offline I see....stars. Posts: 778 Location: Jupiter, and beyond Joined: 03/29/07	Re: 3. Nc3 or 3. Nf3 in the Slav? Reply #1 - 02/22/08 at 22:12:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	John Watson actually does a decent job covering this very subject in his Mastering the Chess Openings book II (1.d4) . My best efforts would be but a poor plagiarization of his words there. Personally, I play 3.Nc3 for my own reasons of which are known only to my hairdresser and a stuffed dinosaur I get advice from. Lately, I've seen a lot of 3. ....dxc4, which is supposed to be the main reason to not play 3.Nc3, but since I'm baiting that very move, I can get by ok. Check out the Watson source for the under 2200 skinny.

	I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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exigentsky Senior Member Offline Q Posts: 402 Joined: 05/14/07	3. Nc3 or 3. Nf3 in the Slav? 02/22/08 at 21:23:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6, 3. Nf3 seems to be the main move. However, in virtually all the variations with Nf3 first, White plays Nc3 next or very soon. In fact, if one started 3. Nc3 and Black does not play dxc4 or e5, it appears to allow transpositions into all the main lines. In addition, it makes some lines, like the Noteboom or Bf5 riskier due to the control of e4 and d5 (with ideas of Qb3). If Black prevents transpositions with 3. ...dxc4 White seems to have a good game with either e3 or the direct e4. White takes advantage of the fact that there is no knight on f6 controlling this square. The "gambit" e5 doesn't seem as objectively strong as the normal lines. Material becomes equal after Qa5+ and Black has gained nothing special in development. 3. Nc3 seems very natural since it immediately challenges the center and initiates play where White has the most strength. Furthermore, the c3 knight cannot be pinned until much later. Still, Nf3 is significantly more popular at the master level. Why do you think this is so? Thanks in advance and I'm sorry if this question is obvious to the stronger players here. It is not at all clear to me.


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