HoemberChess wrote on 12/02/08 at 13:24:41:

I do too!

The Na2 lines are actually good for white, if you keep up w/ latest theory (which they have some here on site).


In the e3 lines, White has option to play Ne4 when it gets hit by the b-pawn.  These lines offer some interesting play and are worth investigating.  



In general, Slav lines are very solid and white's advantage is marginal.  It is the ability to squeeze quarters out of nickles that one must possess in order to score full point against accurate black play in the Slav systems.

Semko wrote on 02/25/08 at 20:24:14:


How do you recommend that White goes about getting this advantage? 

If 4. e3, Black seems fine after either 

4. ... Be6 5. Nf3 b5 6. a4 b4 7. Ne4 Nf6 8. Nxf6+
exf6 9. Bd2  or 4. ...b5 5. a4 b4 6. Ne4 Qd5 7. Nd2 (Ng3 doesn't seem any better) Ba6!? 8. Qc2 c5 9. Nxc4

I suppose you would recommend e4 but what knight retreat?

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 dxc4 4. e4 b5 5. a4 b4

Na2 doesn't seem to offer much after 

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 3... dxc4 4.e4 b5 5. a4 b4 6. Na2 Nf6 7. e5 Nd5 8. Bxc4 e6 9. Nf3 Be7 10. Bd2 a5 11. Nc1 Nd7 12. Nb3 O-O 13. O-O Re8

Nb1 is a bit passive and ceases the initiative. I'm not sure if there is even an advantage after moves like:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 3... dxc4 4.e4 b5 5. a4 b4 6. Nb1 6... Ba6 7. Be3 Nf6 8. f3 e5 9. Ne2 

That leaves Nce2, my favorite move. In my analysis, White's best way for an advantage is the following:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 dxc4 4. e4 b5 5. a4 b4 6. Nce2 e6 7. Nf3 Nf6 8. Ng3 Ba6 9. Bg5 (Qc2 can be met even with the simple b3) Qa5 

After 10. Rc1, Black has the surprising Nfd7 and I think there is equality if not even some advantage for Black. The problem is that the a4 pawn will not be defended after exchanges on c4 and White's compensation is not so certain. It could continue

11. Bxc4 Bxc4 12. Rxc4 Nb6 13. Rc1 Qxa4 14. O-O Qxd1 15. Rfxd1 Be7 

This leaves the main move, 10. Be2 as the best try. Black's best answer is probably Nbd7 since Be7 commits too early and pawn moves like h6/c3/b3 have led to advantage in my analysis.

10. Be2 Nbd7 11. O-O Rc8

Is there really any significant objective advantage in this variation? It doesn't seem like it to me. So how does White get an advantage (not even talking about one bigger than in main lines) against 3. ...dxc4? I hope I missed something in my analysis or am evaluating incorrectly because I have no clue. This isn't a question just for Semko, but for everyone here.

CheckMate wrote on 02/25/08 at 10:50:16:


Well, although 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bf5 is not an easy equalizer, it can still be a reason to prefer 3.Nc3.

Another possible issue is what line you prefer against the Stonewall move-order 3.Nc3/Nf3 e6 4.e3 f5.

Adding the other comments, it actually seems there can be a lot of reasons to prefer one or the other. Funny how big a difference those seemingly small issues can make - that's one of the things that i like about chess. 

Nowadays the most important question is how to meet systems with ...a6. That's the only reason why 3 Nf3 is more popular - it leaves additional possibilities against ...a6. (but not obligatory better than the lines with Nc3)
On the other hand, 3 Nf3 allows Bf5. All in all, both variations are rather equal. It is a matter of repertoire. If you meet ...a6 with Nc3, Nf3 and c4-c5 (which is the most testing) I do not see any reason to prefer 3 Nf3.  Variations like 3 Nc3 e5 or 3 Nc3 dxc4 certainly offer White more chances for an advantage than the main lines.

CheckMate wrote on 02/25/08 at 10:50:16:


For me it also affects the way I play against QGD. 

I like to play 3.Nf3 against the slav ala Palliser with Nbd2 systems.
So far I havent been ready for the Marshall and thus are playing Nf3 in the normal QGD. However, I really would like to play QGD exchange...(without an early Nf3 of course)

I guess I cant have it all

I also think that White gets an edge against 3.Nc3 dxc4, but the question is not whether White gets an edge, but whether it is any bigger than the edge he would get in the main lines.  I'm not convinced that it is, but that's an argument for another thread...

I play 3.Nc3 for practical reasons: my score against 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 dxc4 is not very good...

Thank you for clarifying your post.

I own the most recent version of ECO D as well, and I should mention that I do not agree with their evaluations of 3...dc4 4.e4, since I have found many improvements over their variations. For obvious reasons I shall keep them to myself for my future opponents. On another note, the main move 6.Na2 was deemed slightly better in Glenn Flear's survey in Yearbook 82 titled "It Takes Two to Tangle". 

However, I do not wish to start a pointless argument over this - you think that 3...dc4 4.e4 gives Black equality, and I think that 3...dc4 4.e4 is slightly better for White. So let's leave it at that and move on to another topic. In any case, whether White is better or Black is equal is not as important as how well you play from there.