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Poll closed Question: What would you play after 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 ?
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4 f3 exf3 5 Qxf3, Ryder Gambit    
  7 (14.6%)
4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Accepted    
  22 (45.8%)
4 Bg5, Blackmar-Popiel Gambit    
  6 (12.5%)
4 Nge2    
  2 (4.2%)
4 Qe2    
  2 (4.2%)
4 f4    
  1 (2.1%)
4 g3, with a later Bg2    
  1 (2.1%)
4 Qd2, with idea 5 b3, 6 Bb2, 7 0-0-0    
  4 (8.3%)
4 f3 exf3 5 Be3!?    
  2 (4.2%)
4 d5    
  1 (2.1%)




Total votes: 48
« Last Modified by: Gambit on: 03/21/08 at 00:04:46 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6  is...? (Read 29003 times)
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Re: YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6
Reply #32 - 03/18/08 at 20:52:48
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The Goring Gambit is 1 e4 e5 2 d4 exd4 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 c3, when after 4...dxc3 White can still offer a second pawn with 5 Bc4 just like in the Danish.

4 Nxc3 is still a Danish Gambit, just offering the sacrifice of one pawn instead of two.  That line does usually transpose to the Goring at some point, but then again, if the game was to continue 4 Bc4 cxb2 5 Bxb2 Nc6 6 Nf3, we'd also have a position often reached from the Goring Gambit (see 5 Bc4 above)

There's no way a move like 4 Nxc3 is "cowardly"- I mean, the Danish is one of the most speculative gambits around.  It's like saying that after 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3, 5 Nxf3 is cowardly, sacrificing only one pawn, and a brave man would choose 5 Qxf3 (inviting Qxd4) or even 5 Bf4 fxg2 6 Bxg2.
  
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Re: YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6  is...?
Reply #31 - 03/18/08 at 20:18:14
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This is a response to MNb.

I never heard of such long time controls in ICCF. Does anyone know if ICCF  uses such long time controls? That is first.

Second, I am about to reply to your Danish Gambit. What was the move order, again? 1 e4 e5 2 d4 ed4 3 c3 dxc3 4 Nxc3 ? If I am not mistaken, that is the Goring Gambit, not the Danish Gambit. 
I thought I challenged you to the Danish Gambit proper, chicken?

Third, I disagree with using computers for assistance (other than store games). That is the fundamental difference between me and you. I do not think it is fair to let the computer do all the analytical work, and you just make the moves. Screw that! But you seem to think the opposite, depending on computers to help you.

Fourth, I am sorry to hear you do not earn more than $450  per month. Perhaps you could be a chess tutor and earn some more $$ ?
I have a friend, a chess master, who teaches kids chess. It is his job, one that he has been doing for years, with success.

Fifth, I recommend that you use, if possible, your college's computer lab. I happen to be an alumnus of Rutgers University, and therefore use the computer lab when playing chess. Costs me nothing, really.
Can you do the same with your school? 

Sixth, my brain is working just fine, thank you. I have invented more gambits -- just check the threads here! -- than you have. For example, 1 d4 e5 2 de5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7 , the Zilbermints Gambit is played all over the world. The same applies to the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense to the BDG, 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 ef3 5 Nxf3 e6 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 Nc6 8 00 Nxd4 9 Kh1.  There is also the Zilbermints Grob, 1 g4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 , which is played by Dutch players.  I trust I have made my point clear?

Finally, the way you write can be a bit confusing. This is why I have to ask for clarification in meaning. An example would be the ICCF  time controls, which I thought were strange  and drawn-out, to say the least. 10 moves/50 days? Like I said, pretty drawn-out and long. 

You say I lack courage? Hah! I would not be afraid to play Kramnik with the BDG! In fact, I saw a game played back in 1999.  Kramnik played Black in a simul, and chickened out with 4...e3 in the BDG. That game was drawn.

My objection is that my opponents would get assistance during the game. This is not possible in over-the-board tournament games, where I primarily play. I prefer man-to-man play, without any assistance, computer or human. This is Lev vs. MNb, not Lev vs. MNb
and the whole gamut of assistants. Mano-a-mano.

In OTB tournaments, openings get scrutinized, sure. But the point is that it is one opponent against another, without any outside help.
That is what I consider fair.
« Last Edit: 03/19/08 at 08:32:11 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6  is...?
Reply #30 - 03/17/08 at 23:21:12
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Other people then Lev only should read this post at their own risk to get bored to death.

Gambit wrote on 03/16/08 at 21:08:05:

Firstly, I do not understand your first condition very well. Please elaborate in more detail regarding time controls. For a start, 60 days is okay, but 50 days /every 10 moves?? At this rate, it will take us months and months to play these games! Thus, if we reach move 20, it is going to be 100+  days for each player! Even the correspondence chess club Schemingmind.com does not use such time controls!

I think you need to refine the time controls some. While I do not see any Danish Gambit games going all the way to move 100, I do believe that the 50 days every 10 moves is too much and way too long.  Better, I think, would be 10 moves every 20 days.

Second, your telephone bill is none of my concern, as mine is none of yours. You are responsible for your own telephone bill. 

 Third, no problem, I will check all the Danish literature I have available.


Dear Lev,

I share Alumbrado's worries about the health of your mind. You must have played the BDG more often than is good for you. Your brain has been damaged to such an extent that I have to make myself clear again and again.
First, Lev, my telephone bill is your concern. You desperately want to prove yourself at ICC to me and have challenged me for about the 100th time. Now my salary is about 450 bucks a month. I have a son to maintain and a girlfriend who earns even less than me. I am connected with internet by a modem. Playing you at ICC on your conditions will cost me more money than I can afford. If you call me gutless because I don't want to starve then you need professional help.
Second you understand the ICCF time control very well. You may be a fool (in the Holy Russian meaning), but your not dumb.
Third, Lev, I am not afraid to play you at ICC. I can't pay it. You are afraid to play with really long time controls (which costs me far less), because you don't want the BDG to get scrutinized. That is the real reason I am still waiting for your answers to 4.Nxc3 in the Danish and 5...c6 in the BDG. Note that ArKhein and Patrick Shoupal had the courage you lack.
« Last Edit: 03/19/08 at 08:33:45 by GMTonyKosten »  

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Re: YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6  is...?
Reply #29 - 03/17/08 at 18:52:14
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drkodos wrote on 03/17/08 at 16:41:17:
Wise grasshoppers must not argue with foolish grasshoppers.


Other grasshoppers will have trouble telling the difference.


Oh, go suck on a grasshopper.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6  is...?
Reply #28 - 03/17/08 at 17:49:44
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Try the Schliemann Gambit in the Spanish Game, okay? The King's Gambit is very complicated, and even experts have problems with it.
Boris Spassky likes to play it, as does Joe Gallagher.

As for "most people", well, it is a matter of taste. I would rather give up a pawn for some tactics and compensation than play boring stuff.
  
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Re: YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6  is...?
Reply #27 - 03/17/08 at 16:41:17
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Wise grasshoppers must not argue with foolish grasshoppers.


Other grasshoppers will have trouble telling the difference.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6
Reply #26 - 03/17/08 at 16:26:25
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Gambit wrote on 03/15/08 at 11:42:59:
Have you ever heard of gambits?


Lev, Lev, Lev, Lev, Lev!  Everyone has heard of gambits. Any player who plays at even a moderately strong level must be able to play in gambit fashion.  The question is, when to play this way?  Often in a chess game, as you will be aware, it is good to offer material in exchange for activity.  But most people who would be quite willing to play, for example, the Two Knights Defense; or the Marshall Spanish; or the Marshall Gambit against the Triangle; or the Anti-Moscow Gambit; or the white side of the Najdorf Poisoned Pawn; are not willing to offer one of these 19th-century-style gambits where a center pawn is given up out of the box, and Black has done nothing to compromise his position.  Or the King's Gambit where only a wing pawn is offered but the kingside is compromised.  This reflects a theoretical judgement that has been widespread and indeed almost universal since, oh, 1905 or so. 

But perhaps the future will reveal that you were right; that chess really is a much simpler game than everyone thought it was; that only Anderssen and Morphy, not Botvinnik and Smyslov, deserve our admiration; and that the Queen's Gambit and the Spanish Game were false detours.
  

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Re: YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6  is...?
Reply #25 - 03/17/08 at 00:29:08
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DoubledPawns wrote on 03/16/08 at 23:01:07:
In answer to 1.d4 d6 2.e4 de4, I would call an illegal move - and then the arbiter. And if it was a lightning game, I would claim a win for myself. 

In the related yet very different 1.d4 d5 2.e4 de4 3.Nc3 Nf6 sub-sub variation, I would knock my king over - resignation? Not quite. I would adjust my king and move it to e2. After 4...Bg4 5.f3 ef3 6.Nf3 Bf3 7.Kf3, my king is active and centralised - unless I am very, very much mistaken, I think this constitutes more than sufficient compensation for me.

I am more than happy to play the position after 7.Kf3 as White - if the game is both unrated and bullet.


This is cheating, pure and simple.
  
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Re: YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6  is...?
Reply #24 - 03/16/08 at 23:01:07
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In answer to 1.d4 d6 2.e4 de4, I would call an illegal move - and then the arbiter. And if it was a lightning game, I would claim a win for myself. 

In the related yet very different 1.d4 d5 2.e4 de4 3.Nc3 Nf6 sub-sub variation, I would knock my king over - resignation? Not quite. I would adjust my king and move it to e2. After 4...Bg4 5.f3 ef3 6.Nf3 Bf3 7.Kf3, my king is active and centralised - unless I am very, very much mistaken, I think this constitutes more than sufficient compensation for me.

I am more than happy to play the position after 7.Kf3 as White - if the game is both unrated and bullet.
  

Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something - Plato
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Re: YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6  is...?
Reply #23 - 03/16/08 at 21:08:05
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MNb wrote on 03/16/08 at 20:26:06:
Gambit wrote on 03/16/08 at 19:40:13:

I should say, I'm perfectly willing to capture both pawns in the Danish Gambit and defend accurately. Why don't we play a game on Internet Chess Club two weeks from now? Regular time controls, 30/90, SD/60. I play Black in the Danish.

On the other hand, you play Black in the BDG, and ACCEPT the gambit. Same time controls, 30/90, SD/60.

Well, would you like to accept? Or are you too... yellow chicken?

Which is it?

We have gone over this before, haven't we? Do you always ask questions on which you already know the answer?
I am willing to meet you at ICC on three conditions:
1. We will also play two games with ICCF time controls, hence 60 days plus 50 extra every 10 moves and computers allowed;
2. You will pay my telephone bill.
3. I will play 4.Nxc3 in the Danish, on which you haven't answered yet in that e4 e5 thread.
For condition 1 and 3 you are too .... yellow chicken; for condition 2 you don't have the money.


Firstly, I do not understand your first condition very well. Please elaborate in more detail regarding time controls. For a start, 60 days is okay, but 50 days /every 10 moves?? At this rate, it will take us months and months to play these games! Thus, if we reach move 20, it is going to be 100+  days for each player! Even the correspondence chess club Schemingmind.com does not use such time controls!

I think you need to refine the time controls some. While I do not see any Danish Gambit games going all the way to move 100, I do believe that the 50 days every 10 moves is too much and way too long.  Better, I think, would be 10 moves every 20 days.

Second, your telephone bill is none of my concern, as mine is none of yours. You are responsible for your own telephone bill. 

 Third, no problem, I will check all the Danish literature I have available.

So long, computer-using yellow gutless chicken!
« Last Edit: 03/17/08 at 01:22:25 by Gambit »  
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Re: YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6  is...?
Reply #22 - 03/16/08 at 20:26:06
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Gambit wrote on 03/16/08 at 19:40:13:

I should say, I'm perfectly willing to capture both pawns in the Danish Gambit and defend accurately. Why don't we play a game on Internet Chess Club two weeks from now? Regular time controls, 30/90, SD/60. I play Black in the Danish.

On the other hand, you play Black in the BDG, and ACCEPT the gambit. Same time controls, 30/90, SD/60.

Well, would you like to accept? Or are you too... yellow chicken?

Which is it?

We have gone over this before, haven't we? Do you always ask questions on which you already know the answer?
I am willing to meet you at ICC on three conditions:
1. We will also play two games with ICCF time controls, hence 60 days plus 50 extra every 10 moves and computers allowed;
2. You will pay my telephone bill.
3. I will play 4.Nxc3 in the Danish, on which you haven't answered yet in that e4 e5 thread.
For condition 1 and 3 you are too .... yellow chicken; for condition 2 you don't have the money.
  

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Re: YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6  is...?
Reply #21 - 03/16/08 at 20:13:43
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Gambit wrote on 03/16/08 at 19:40:13:


Or are you too... yellow chicken?

Which is it?


All you need is to drop McFly name to complete your succesfull metamorphosis into the Bif Tannen of ChessPub.   Wink

I like yellow:

Rice
Journalism
Curiousity
Babies
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6  is...?
Reply #20 - 03/16/08 at 19:40:13
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MNb wrote on 03/15/08 at 20:34:16:
Gambit wrote on 03/15/08 at 17:59:11:
Actually I was going to post the line SWJedi did, but thought that 5...d5 was good too.

Don't know about chicken, MNb. I accepted the gambit pawns, and returned one. In the BDG, people do not even want to accept one pawn!

Maybe I have a problem counting, but I think after 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 Black has accepted a pawn - and no returned. Of course is 5...d5 good against the Danish. So are 4...c6 and 5...c6 against the BDG. Chicken!


I should say, I'm perfectly willing to capture both pawns in the Danish Gambit and defend accurately. Why don't we play a game on Internet Chess Club two weeks from now? Regular time controls, 30/90, SD/60. I play Black in the Danish.

On the other hand, you play Black in the BDG, and ACCEPT the gambit. Same time controls, 30/90, SD/60.

Well, would you like to accept? Or are you too... yellow chicken?

Which is it?
  
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Re: YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6  is...?
Reply #19 - 03/15/08 at 20:34:16
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Gambit wrote on 03/15/08 at 17:59:11:
Actually I was going to post the line SWJedi did, but thought that 5...d5 was good too.

Don't know about chicken, MNb. I accepted the gambit pawns, and returned one. In the BDG, people do not even want to accept one pawn!

Maybe I have a problem counting, but I think after 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 Black has accepted a pawn - and no returned. Of course is 5...d5 good against the Danish. So are 4...c6 and 5...c6 against the BDG. Chicken!
  

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Re: YOUR MOVE AFTER 1 d4 d6 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6  is...?
Reply #18 - 03/15/08 at 17:59:11
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Actually I was going to post the line SWJedi did, but thought that 5...d5 was good too.

Don't know about chicken, MNb. I accepted the gambit pawns, and returned one. In the BDG, people do not even want to accept one pawn!
  
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