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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) I lost my interest after this.... (Read 192991 times)
buffos
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #46 - 06/05/09 at 06:36:49
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Quote:
I can only assume your first variation, 21...Bh8 was some kind of gross typo. I don't think you could find a worse choice! However, I have some ideas - what about:


No Bh8 is an idea to get the Queen to h6 fast without getting the N at f6 to defense.

Anyway. The variations you give are correct BUT

i think better is after 23.Rc2 Bf6 24.h3 Nh4 25.Nb5 Qh6 26.Bc4  and now 26...Ng2 Rg2 27.Bh3 Qd2 does not seem to bring black anything

  
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TonyRo
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #45 - 06/04/09 at 18:27:50
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I can only assume your first variation, 21...Bh8 was some kind of gross typo. I don't think you could find a worse choice! However, I have some ideas - what about: 

21...Ne8 22. Nbxa7 Bd7 23. Be1 Bf6! for example, if you'd like to snatch the pawn, 24. hxg3 fxg3 25. Bxg3 Qh6 and now: 

26. Nb5 Rg7->

26. Rc2 Bg5-> 

Any move you find here is going to be fine for Black because his pieces have a lot of scope and your dark squares are a huge cause for concern. If you don't want the pawn: 

24. h3? Nh4! and I take on g2 next move, and you're busted. 

Most other moves will be met by 24...gxh2+ and 25...Qh6+, or if you don't take it, I find a way to put a knight on g3, material be damned! 

  
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buffos
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #44 - 06/04/09 at 17:58:28
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Matemax wrote on 06/01/09 at 09:01:53:

Position after 18.Be1

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

I would like to show some sample lines if Black plays immediately 18...g4 without any further preparation (Just remember that in the stem game White played 18.Bb4 Bf8 19.Nf2! to protect himself):

18. ... g4 19.Nb4 g3 20.hxg3 
[20.h3 Bxh3 21.gxh3 Qd7]
20. ... fxg3 21.Bxg3 
[21.Nc6 Qf8 22.Bxg3 Bh6 23.Rc3 Rg7 24.Bf2 (24.Bh2 Bf4 25.Qc2 Nh4 26.g4 Bxg4 27.fxg4 Bxh2+ 28.Kh1 (28.Kxh2 Nxg4+ 29.Kh3 Nf2+ 30.Rxf2 Qxf2) 28. ... Bf4 29.Rh3 Ng6) 24. ... Nf4 25.g4 Nxg4 26.fxg4 Nxe2+ 27.Qxe2 Bxg4]
21. ... Nh5 22.Be1 Bh6 23.Rc6 Be3+ 24.Bf2 Qg5 25.Nc2 Ngf4 26.Nxe3 Nh3+ 27.Kh2 Nxf2 28.Qc1 Qh4+ 29.Kg1 Nh3+ 30.gxh3 Rg7+ 31.Ng4 Qg3+ 32.Kh1 Qxh3+ 33.Kg1 Bd7

Play for both sides can certainly be improved - but don't trust the comps here!


I agree that comps dont get it right, but comps + humans get it Smiley

So here it is..

18..g4 19.Nb4 g3 20.Nc6 first displace the queen
20...Qf8 21.Bb4 and now

21...Bh8 22.Qd2 Ne8 23.Nd8 and
21...Ne8 22.Nba7 Bd7 23. Be1 Bh6 24.Rc2 Nh4 25. Nb5 and white is clearly better although black can find some tricks.


  
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BPaulsen
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #43 - 06/04/09 at 02:10:28
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Matemax wrote on 03/24/08 at 19:55:18:
Quote:
Have a look at "King's Indian Defence - Mar Del Plata Variation" from Gligoric, page 31, where Gligoric actually gives a few game referneces to the night sac. I am not sure if 18. Bb4 is necessarily best. Gligoric, Rybka and Fritz all prefer 18. Qb3 with references to Sariyadzanov-Klimav, St. Petersburg 1997 and Biryukov-Solovyov, St. Petersburg 1999.

18...Rf7 would be my choice then instead of 18...g4 as in Sariyadzanov-Klimav and if 19.Bb4 then Bf8; on 19.Nc5 I think I can risk 19...Qc7

I dont have the Gligoric book - does he give this option?


I'd like to know as well. 15...a6 seems the most straightforward attempt at refutation.

17...Qe8 definitely looks best.
  
2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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TonyRo
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #42 - 06/02/09 at 17:24:37
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Another risky try for Black is this: 

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.f3 Nf6 12.Bd2 f4 13.c5 g5 14.Rc1 Ng6 15.Nb5 g4!? 

Now 16. Ba5 seems critical when I had the idea of 16...Nxd5?!!? Some wild sample variations follow: 

17. exd5 g3 18. h3 Qh4 19. Qd2 Bxh3! 20. gxh3 Qxh3 21. Bd1 e4! 22. fxe4 (22. Bc3 Bxc3 23. Rc3 exd3 is fine for Black) a6 23. Qg2 Qh4 24. Bc3 axb5 25. Bxg7 Kxg7 26. cxd6 cxd6 27. Rc7+ Kh8 when Black is fine. 

or 17. Qb3 g3 18. h3 Qh4 19. Bd1 Kh8! 20. exd5 (20. Qxd5 c6 21. Qxd6 cxb5 22. Rc2 Rf6) e4! 21. fxe4 Bxh3 22. gxh3 Qxh3 23. Rc2 a6 24. Bc3 axb5 25. Qxb5 Bxc3 26. bxc3 g2! 27. Rxg2 Nh4 ->

Unfortunately I haven't been able to come up with anything against the clever 18. Rc4! in the first line, so I gave up on this one. However, I doubt someone would find 18. Rc4 OTB. Even if none of this works, it was a joy to sit and analyze for a while.  Grin
  
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Matemax
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #41 - 06/01/09 at 09:01:53
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OK - let's try something with Mr. Shredder taking White (I mostly took the preferred lines) and Mr. Matemax as Black (no deep analyses, this would take days in such positions Wink):

Position after 18.Be1

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

I would like to show some sample lines if Black plays immediately 18...g4 without any further preparation (Just remember that in the stem game White played 18.Bb4 Bf8 19.Nf2! to protect himself):

18. ... g4 19.Nb4 g3 20.hxg3 
[20.h3 Bxh3 21.gxh3 Qd7]
20. ... fxg3 21.Bxg3 
[21.Nc6 Qf8 22.Bxg3 Bh6 23.Rc3 Rg7 24.Bf2 (24.Bh2 Bf4 25.Qc2 Nh4 26.g4 Bxg4 27.fxg4 Bxh2+ 28.Kh1 (28.Kxh2 Nxg4+ 29.Kh3 Nf2+ 30.Rxf2 Qxf2) 28. ... Bf4 29.Rh3 Ng6) 24. ... Nf4 25.g4 Nxg4 26.fxg4 Nxe2+ 27.Qxe2 Bxg4]
21. ... Nh5 22.Be1 Bh6 23.Rc6 Be3+ 24.Bf2 Qg5 25.Nc2 Ngf4 26.Nxe3 Nh3+ 27.Kh2 Nxf2 28.Qc1 Qh4+ 29.Kg1 Nh3+ 30.gxh3 Rg7+ 31.Ng4 Qg3+ 32.Kh1 Qxh3+ 33.Kg1 Bd7

Play for both sides can certainly be improved - but don't trust the comps here!
  
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #40 - 06/01/09 at 08:34:19
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Did you read TonyRo's earlier post? He said 18...a6 19.Nc3 a5 (to stop Nb4) or 19.Na3 b5
  
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buffos
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #39 - 05/29/09 at 21:53:37
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I have a very big tree of variations on the position (using IDEA) , but i think its irrelavant. You can use your Rybka and try moves for black. The position is very very simple for white. 

If you find ONE variation after Be1 that you can call it "complicated" i will gladly write down the refutation. 

There is no time for a King side attack. Since we have engines, just try to find ONE playable continuation. The black pawn on b6 is big difference on the whole position. Now the Nb4 -c6 maneuver paralyzes black, and no Kingside attack is possible.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #38 - 05/29/09 at 14:38:38
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buffos wrote on 05/29/09 at 04:59:15:
I think also 17..cxd6 is losing. Not tactically but the position is +/- at least.
For example after 18.Be1 and there are a lot of minor points that give white the clear advantage

1) The pawn is at b6 giving white the c6 square.
2) if black tries to push the Knight from b5 with a6 then he will have to face Bf2 Nb4 jumps and also the queen is stuck to d8 to protect b6

The position is a nightmare for black


What's the point of generalizing in such a complicated position? Yes, Black has queenside weaknesses, welcome to the KID! It's just a waste of everyone's time to have to read "Oh yes, White's winning because Black has a weak c6-square, etc..." Prove it with some back and forth analysis and I'll be glad to accept this verdict, otherwise, don't waste your time punching those little keys.  Grin
« Last Edit: 05/29/09 at 16:24:15 by TonyRo »  
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #37 - 05/29/09 at 07:27:38
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buffos wrote on 05/29/09 at 04:59:15:
I think also 17..cxd6 is losing. Not tactically but the position is +/- at least.
For example after 18.Be1 and there are a lot of minor points that give white the clear advantage

1) The pawn is at b6 giving white the c6 square.
2) if black tries to push the Knight from b5 with a6 then he will have to face Bf2 Nb4 jumps and also the queen is stuck to d8 to protect b6

The position is a nightmare for black

Isn't Black always lost on the queenside in the KI? With ...Nc6 in the opening you have already burned your bridges and restricted yourself to play for a kingside attack. That's what you have to do in the position after 18.Be1 as well - ...Bf8, ...Rg7,...g4,...g3,...Nh5,.... hoping to create enough counterplay. Hopefully White plays all his kingside defenders to the queenside to attack my pawns there and to occupy weak squares - I am going for the mate meanwhile - and if it doesn't work, well that's chess....
  
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #36 - 05/29/09 at 04:59:15
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I think also 17..cxd6 is losing. Not tactically but the position is +/- at least.
For example after 18.Be1 and there are a lot of minor points that give white the clear advantage

1) The pawn is at b6 giving white the c6 square.
2) if black tries to push the Knight from b5 with a6 then he will have to face Bf2 Nb4 jumps and also the queen is stuck to d8 to protect b6

The position is a nightmare for black
  
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #35 - 05/16/09 at 11:11:31
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TonyRo wrote on 04/29/09 at 13:35:45:
Your line actually transposes to mine, so I'm glad we're in agreeance about the evaluation. What happens after 28. Kf2?

I think 28...Nh5 exchanging the knight for the dark squared bishop looks good - Black has compensation cause he dominates the dark squares. 29.Rh1 Ng3 and White has to play 30.Kg3 cause 30.Rh6 fails to ...Ne4, 29.Bh2 is no option after 29...Qh4 and White may ask himself what the king is doing on f2
  
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #34 - 05/16/09 at 10:25:46
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I don't know. From my feeling black should have enough compensation, but it's very difficult to prove it against Rybka.  Undecided
  
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TonyRo
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #33 - 04/29/09 at 13:35:45
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Your line actually transposes to mine, so I'm glad we're in agreeance about the evaluation. What happens after 28. Kf2?
  
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #32 - 04/29/09 at 08:06:39
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Thank you for the answers!

First I think that accepting the knight in either way is very risky for black, white gets very good compensation.

So it seems black has to accept the weakening of his queenside and play 15. ... Rf7 16.Ba5 b6 17.cd6: cd6:

Now I think 18.Be1 is stronger than 18.Bb4, because the purpose of the move is twofold: The bishop helps to defend the kingside and leaves b4 for the knight, so that Nd3-b4-c6 is a strong threat.

18.Be1 a6 19.Nc3 a5 (I think it is necessary) 20.Nb5 g4 21.Rc6 Bf8 22.Bf2 Bb7 23.Rc3 g3 24.hg3: Nh5!? (after 24. ... hg3: 25.Bg3: Nh5 white can play 26.Bh2! which looks strange but keeps control of f4 and poses problems to black, e.g. 26. ... Ngf4 27.Nf4: Nf4: 28.Bf4: ef4: 29.Nd4 and the knight will come to e6) 25.gf4: (25.g4?! Ng3 looks dangerous for white with Qh4 and ideas of Bf8-e7-h4 to follow; 25.Qe1 fg3: 26.Bg3: Ba6 27.a4 Bb5: 28.ab5: Bh6 or 28. ... Ng3: 29.Qg3: Bh6 with chances because of the opposite-colored bishops) Ngf4: 26.Nf4: Nf4: 27.Bg3 Bh6 28.Bh2 Rg7 29.g3 Qh4 30.Qe1 Qh3 31.Qf2 Ne2: 32.Qe2: Ba6 33.a4 Bf4 34.Qg2 Qh6 35.Rc6 Nb5: 34.ab5: Be3 and black has good compensation.

So I hope black can get accepable play somewhere here, otherwise he will have to search for improvements much earlier.

At least this new game shows that it's also not that easy for white:

[Event "New Delhi open"]
[Date "2009.??.??"]
[White "Bhat, Vinay S"]
[Black "Sai, Krishna G V"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2495"]
[BlackElo "2162"]
[ECO "E98"]


1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. 
Ne1 Ne8 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5 Rf7 16. Ba5 
b6 17. cxd6 cxd6 18. Bb4 Bf8 19. Nf2 a6 20. Na3 h5 21. Nc4 a5 22. Be1 Bd7 23. a4 
Rg7 24. h3 Nh8 25. Na3 Nf7 26. Nb5 Rc8 27. Rxc8 Qxc8 28. Nd3 g4 29. Bh4 Ng5 30. hxg4 
hxg4 31. Kf2 gxf3 32. gxf3 Nh3  33. Ke1 Nh5 34. Bf2 Qd8 35. Kd2 Rg2 36. Kc3 Ng3 37. 
Bxg3 fxg3 38. f4 exf4 39. Kb3 Qg5 40. Nd4 Bg7 41. Nf3 Qg6 42. Nd2 Rxe2 43. Qxe2 g2 
44. Nc4 gxf1Q 45. Qxf1 Qxe4 46. Nxb6 Bf5 0-1
Smiley
  
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