ChessPub Forum - I lost my interest after this....

Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #91 - 04/22/10 at 08:24:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	BPaulsen wrote on 04/22/10 at 02:08:25: 11...Kh8 would be my preference (as seen in Bologan's book). I don't think white has anything there, and nor do older surveys by Glek/Golubev from 2001 show anything for white. I explained recently the ...Kh8 idea in one of my lectures as was explained to me by Shirov in his "KID Best games" DVD. Of course the idea is not the ...Ng8-Bh6 manouvre but to place the e7 knight in h6 acting like the f6 knight which now can be stay for a while on the usefull d7 and only at the last time to switch to the defensive Nf6-Ne8. It's a pitty Bologan doesn't make it clear in his book as Shirov does in his DVD.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #90 - 04/22/10 at 06:00:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 04/22/10 at 03:52:18: Ametanoitos wrote on 04/21/10 at 22:39:37: Thanks for the update. I started this popular thread some time ago and i expressed my loss of interest in the whole KID after discovering this line for White that i still believe that it could be a big pain for the hardcore KID player. Now, i'd choose 11...fxe4 which is completely satisfactory as i have heard from a friend-GM. So, all in all Black can avoid this line. But can black really avoid it so easily. Suppose white inverts the move order by going 11.f3 first and then only 12.Bd2. Food for thought if one really loves this line for white. Tops 11. f3 seems well met by 11...f4 - to my knowledge white's not supposed to play f3 (as a general rule) until after ...Nf6 by black.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #89 - 04/22/10 at 04:01:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	But then Black can play ...f4 (no Bg4), keeping his knight on d7 to hinder c5 for the time being.


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #88 - 04/22/10 at 03:52:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 04/21/10 at 22:39:37: Thanks for the update. I started this popular thread some time ago and i expressed my loss of interest in the whole KID after discovering this line for White that i still believe that it could be a big pain for the hardcore KID player. Now, i'd choose 11...fxe4 which is completely satisfactory as i have heard from a friend-GM. So, all in all Black can avoid this line. But can black really avoid it so easily. Suppose white inverts the move order by going 11.f3 first and then only 12.Bd2. Food for thought if one really loves this line for white. Tops

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #87 - 04/22/10 at 02:08:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	11...Kh8 would be my preference (as seen in Bologan's book). I don't think white has anything there, and nor do older surveys by Glek/Golubev from 2001 show anything for white. I'm not totally trusting of 11...fxe4 in comparison, those positions are somewhere between += and = most of the time. Black's very solid, but that's about all that can be said in favor of his position, it's more of a two-result game. At least, that's the impression I've got based on the work I've done on it.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #86 - 04/21/10 at 22:39:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks for the update. I started this popular thread some time ago and i expressed my loss of interest in the whole KID after discovering this line for White that i still believe that it could be a big pain for the hardcore KID player. Now, i'd choose 11...fxe4 which is completely satisfactory as i have heard from a friend-GM. So, all in all Black can avoid this line.


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Papageno Senior Member Offline FM Posts: 299 Location: Germany Joined: 06/12/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #85 - 04/21/10 at 21:49:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Here is a very recent and topical game in this line: [Event "AUT-chT 0910"] [Site "Austria"] [Date "2010.03.29"] [Round "10.1"] [White "Meier, Georg"] [Black "Polzin, Rainer"] [Result "0-1"] [ECO "E99"] [WhiteElo "2663"] [BlackElo "2473"] [PlyCount "124"] [EventDate "2009.11.06"] [EventType "team-tourn"] [EventRounds "11"] [EventCountry "AUT"] [SourceDate "2010.03.31"] [WhiteTeam "Holz Dohr"] [BlackTeam "Wulkaprodersdorf"] [WhiteTeamCountry "AUT"] [BlackTeamCountry "AUT"] 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5 Rf7 16. Ba5 b6 17. cxd6 cxd6 18. Be1 a6 19. Nc3 a5 20. Bf2 Rb8 21. Nb5 Bf8 22. Rc6 Ne8 23. a4 Bd7 24. Rc3 Rb7 25. b4 h5 26. bxa5 bxa5 27. Na7 Nf6 28. Nc6 Qa8 29. Qc2 g4 30. Nb2 Rg7 31. Nc4 g3 32. hxg3 fxg3 33. Bxg3 h4 34. Bh2 Nh5 35. Ne3 Ng3 36. Re1 Nf4 37. Bd1 Rb6 38. Ng4 Kh8 39. Qf2 Rb1 40. Rce3 Bxc6 41. dxc6 Qxc6 42. Bxg3 hxg3 43. Qxg3 Be7 44. Qf2 Bd8 45. Bb3 Rxe1+ 46. Qxe1 Qc5 47. Kh1 Rh7+ 48. Nh2 Qd4 49. g3 Qb2 50. Qg1 Nh3 51. Qf1 Nf2+ 52. Kg1 Nh3+ 53. Kh1 Nf2+ 54. Kg1 Rxh2 55. Re2 Rh1+ 56. Kg2 Qxb3 57. Qxf2 Rh7 58. f4 Bb6 59. Rb2 Qxa4 60. Qe2 Qd4 61. Kf3 exf4 62. gxf4 Qc3+ 0-1 Just a few light notes: GM Georg Meier has been playing this line repeatedly over the last few months. He always preferred 18. Be1 (over 18. Bb4). He seems to agree here with YB-94 where Giri states "The square b4 belongs to the knight on d3." 20. Bf2N is new in this game and looks like a very reasonable plan. A few months before Meier chose 20. Nf2 (game is given in YB-94) when confronted with the then novelty 19... a5N. The white initiative on the queen's side seems to develop faster in our game. Maybe 29. Qd2 g4 30. Rc4 would have been a more direct approach to exploit the weakness at a5. This seems to give White the upper hand. Nevertheless, the black attack on the king's side finally won the game for black side.


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gewgaw God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 687 Location: europe Joined: 09/09/04	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #84 - 04/06/10 at 18:56:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Impressive thread, even NIC Y94 has nothing to add. Grats for everybody! P.S. What about g2-g4 after f5-f4?

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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #83 - 02/13/10 at 18:41:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	The B has no reason to come back to e1 immediately. Qd1 can be played as well to prevent ...g4 before hand. 22. h3 is more consistent. Then if black follows the same move sequence white goes in for Qd1 in place of Be1. There's no rush on playing Be1. On b4 it supports the Na3-c4/Pa5 idea, too. If black can't force through ...g4 then white has time. If black elects to chase the Bb4 back to e1 with ...a5, then white in essence gains a move he wanted to play anyway. Sample: 21...Rg7 22. h3 a6 23. Na3 Nf6 24. Qd1 Nh4 25. Nc4, with a5 to likely follow. Be1 can be played if black chooses to chase the B with ...a5.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Klick

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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #82 - 02/13/10 at 14:28:16

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Valuable input. I did have a look at some similar ideas and found that white has to be real careful to not allow a Ng6-h4xg2 sacrifice followed by g5-g4 at some point. Thats one downside to Nf2: it shields h4 for the Be1.

Lets say we have 21.Nf2 Rg7 22. Be1 a6 23.Na3 Nh4 24. h3 Nf6 and now g5-g4 is on the table.

There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN

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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #81 - 02/13/10 at 13:27:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	21. Nf2 makes more sense than 21. Qd1. The N is supposed to go to f2 in these positions anyway, and h3 can follow. White's not supposed to be going on all-out offense, he can safely afford to secure the K-side. White will make ...g4 as unappetizing as possible while setting up the Na4-c4 and a5 break. The Qc2 should only move `when it has to`, otherwise white goes into the Nf2/h3/Be1/Na3-c4 set-up. It can go to d1 if it ends up being necessary, or not at all. The plan to put the Bb4 on f2 is never correct in these positions. It'll usually camp out on e1 awaiting a Nh4 (necessary to force through ...g4) where it'll get chopped, or if black ventures ...a5 then it'll support a b4 advance. Be1-f2 is one of those moves computers tend to love, but is about as strategically wrong as it gets. The whole point behind Nd3 (aside from supporting c5) is to go to f2 to prevent the ...g4 break, and provide protection to the e4 pawn as well.

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Klick

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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #80 - 02/13/10 at 12:07:53

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I have looked a lot at this variation lately and while initially optimistic for white`s cause I`ve turned increasingly pessimistic about his chances. I have failed at finding anything substantial for white. It seems to me that while Black makes sensible moves on the kingside to initiate his hacking, whites play on the queenside is too slow. I have looked at deviations and agree that

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5
Rf7 16. Ba5 b6 17. cxd6 cxd6 is the tabiya for this line

and that 18. Be1 a6 19. Nc3 a5 20. Nb5 g4 is sufficient for Black.

However, I don`t think there is anything to be found in the other line either. 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5
Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5 Rf7 16. Ba5 b6 17. cxd6 cxd6 18. Bb4 Bf8 19. Qc2 Ne8 20. a4 h5 21. Qd1 Rg7 22. Be1

a6 23. Na3 a5 24. Nc4 Nf6 25. Bf2 Rb8 26. Rc3 g4 27. Rb3 Nh7 28. Bxb6 {This is good for white, but only this will do, other captures are better for black.} (28. Nxb6 Rxb6 29. Bxb6 Qh4 30. Kh1 (30. Qd2 g3 31. hxg3
fxg3 32. Rc1 Qh2+ 33. Kf1 Bh3 34. Ne1 Qh1+ 35. Bg1 Ng5 36. Bd1 Nh4 37. Rc2 Nxe4
38. fxe4 Bxg2+ 39. Nxg2 Rf7+ 40. Ke2 Qxg2+ 41. Kd3 Qxg1) 30... g3 31. Bg1 Ng5
32. Qd2 Nh3 33. gxh3 g2+ 34. Kxg2 Bxh3+ 35. Kh1 Ne7 36. Nxf4 Qxf4 37. Be3 Bg2+
38. Kg1 Bxf1+ 39. Kxf1 Qxh2) (28. Rxb6 Rxb6 29. Nxb6 g3 30. hxg3 fxg3 31. Bxg3
Qxb6+)

However why kick the knight to c4? 22..a5 seems fine to me. 23.Rc6 Nf6 24.Bf2 Rb8 and now what? Whites play on the queenside seems way too slow and black threatens to crash through on the kingside on every turn.

There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN

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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #79 - 12/15/09 at 09:23:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think the 11...Kh8!? system followed by ...Ng8 deserves attention, and White should only achieve a small edge at best. I have attached my analyses to this post, with three games from Informant plus my own annotations.

	I_lost_my_interest_after_this.pgn ( 5 KB \| 351 Downloads ) All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #78 - 12/14/09 at 07:10:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, the way Ivanchuk played is an old main line which as far as I know has generally been considered equal/unclear for 30+ years. The recent Panczyk/Ilczuk book also reflects that view, with regard to both 22...a6 and 22...Nf6.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #77 - 12/14/09 at 01:54:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	gewgaw wrote on 12/13/09 at 22:55:41: kylemeister wrote on 12/13/09 at 21:40:31: gewgaw wrote on 12/13/09 at 20:57:38: {the usual dollar signs and whatnot} It seems otb the line is playable for black, in cor. games probably not. I suppose by "the line" you mean the unusual and apparently dubious 22...g4. You are right, these "$" and so on is horrible to read, but just copy and pase the whole stuff and it should be perfectly readable in chessbase programms. I´m really very interessted in this line with white, because my next opponent plays this line with black. Actually...what is the conclusion/main line of the whole stuff so far, it´s quite difficult no to lose the overview?! It's still being worked on by a number of us. That said, a few conclusions based on the progression of the thread: The primary focus of attention is 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5. Kylemester mentioned that a recent book thought 11...fxe4 was equal/unclear, and to my knowledge that line is somewhere between += and =, with white being positionally better, but black being solid. Conclusions we've generally established: 15...a6 16. dxc6 looks += at best, unclear at worst when black accepts the N. I agree with TN's analysis that it tends more towards being good for white than being unclear. 15...Rf7 is met by 16. Ba5 when b6 is met by 17. cxd6, because if black accepts the offered bishop he's just worse. 17...cxd6 is best met in turn by 18. Bb4 Bf8 19. Qc2 Ne8, and based on my research so far 20. a4 is white's best try for an advantage. Alternatives to 20. a4 are too slow, and white's pieces end up awkwardly placed after a 20...a6 response due to lacking access to the Na3-c4 maneuver, which in turn gives black the initiative.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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