ChessPub Forum - I lost my interest after this....

Mikhail_Golubev Junior Member Offline Posts: 56 Location: Odessa Joined: 02/17/04 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #151 - 05/23/12 at 00:37:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 04/20/12 at 09:22:15: Edit: I would also like to add that Golubev's 18...Nxb4 (which is given as an alternative in the book as a footnote) has been refuted also. 19.Qb3 g4 20.Nc6! I must have missed something, do not have time to follow all the K.I.D. developments these days. 20.Nc6 is an obvious move, was analysed a bit in Informator by Lukacs/Erdos many years ago. Seems to be too complex, also for computers, to make such definite assessments. Well, if the engine would have been able to analyse 20 moves ahead here, I would trust it more or less, probably after making some work!?


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proustiskeen God Member Offline Hello from Omaha! Posts: 681 Joined: 08/11/08	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #150 - 05/15/12 at 21:57:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	I, too, was under the impression that Black was ok with the improvements I mentioned. I'd be thrilled to learn that wasn't the case!


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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #149 - 05/15/12 at 17:11:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 04/26/12 at 21:40:14: "Huge" holes no. Thanks for that by the way. This line is a "living creature" with many new games to come and you have done a quite good overview. But i have already expressed my doubts about Black's position. Simply put, i am not optimistic. I lost my interest after this!... Didn't we find a way through for Black across a few e-mails (relatively) recently?


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Matemax

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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #148 - 04/27/12 at 05:48:07

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I had a look at the corr. database (ICCF) and strangely enough mostly 18.Ba6 is played (comps first choice, but with mixed results). Then I turned on my engine and it came up with 18...Qb8 (after 18.a4) - diagram.

I am not trying to evaluate 18...Qb8 because I am certainly not so deep in this position. Furthermore I am not as strong a chess player as fluffy and not as strong an analyst as Ametanoitos. But I leave it as food for thought...

Btw: This is my post 1111 - someone for a beer!?

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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #147 - 04/26/12 at 21:40:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	"Huge" holes no. Thanks for that by the way. This line is a "living creature" with many new games to come and you have done a quite good overview. But i have already expressed my doubts about Black's position. Simply put, i am not optimistic. I lost my interest after this!...


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proustiskeen God Member Offline Hello from Omaha! Posts: 681 Joined: 08/11/08	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #146 - 04/25/12 at 02:41:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	So... now that Dave and Nikos have piped down, anybody see any huge holes in my analysis?


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brabo God Member Offline Welcome chessfriend Posts: 1073 Joined: 02/02/07	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #145 - 04/20/12 at 14:32:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	fluffy wrote on 04/20/12 at 12:12:08: why would I be scouring the analysis of an unknown (to me, at the time) 2100 player. OTB-rating is something very different from analytical skills. I've known even a 1800 player who was an excellent correspondence player in the pre-computertime and had a much more advanced knowledge of chess than his rating would insinuate. Besides today everybody with a computer armed can make analysis which are largely passing the strength of any topgrandmaster in boardplay. I see no reason to neglect the hours spent by an amateur and willing to share his work. In fact you could/ should see it as a free access to extra computerpower.


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #144 - 04/20/12 at 13:47:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	I have nothing against Mr Vigorito, really. I have heard nice things about him and his works speak for the quality of the man. Probably (or should i say certainly) he spent countless hours making the KID books and sudenly he reads that an unknown guy from Greece criticises severely his work. I may have reacted in a more bad manner.I understand that. And no, if i insulted Mr Vigorito, i didn't do it intentionally and for that i apologise, but if i ever said anything it was about his work, and not about him being "this" or "that". If i act "always so high and mighty" it is something that i suppose many members of this foroum will have a different opinion, but i feel sad that i made him have this opinion because it is something that doesn't reflect my character (language may be, but it is not always an excuse, i am not a great poster when i write quickly!). And i didn't try to "bait" anyone. It is a foroum where all members express thoughts about chess publications for years now and this is what i do for years here. I am happy to be a respected member of this foroum and i never considered myself "famous" by any means. I wrote: "Some parts of Vigorito's book are just bad". I understand that this is "more direct than intented" as Bibs says. Yes, indeed it is. I apologise for that again. The problem with the KID is that even if you write a chapter which is generally good and you make a mistake about not taking into conideration at the time of writting a single line which might prove powerfull, then the whole chapter can be described as "just bad", a phrase that doesn't adress the real issue, that the author has done a good job, but he was "unlucky" or didn't spent the hours needed in this particular line to spot the crucial detail. I and Jacob have received several emails (or posts in QC blog or here at chesspub) of "little details" for the Tarrasch book also. But Tarrasch is not as "sensitive" as KID is. In KID a little detail can kill you. Certainly a beauty of the opening (for which, at present there is no better source for study -objectively- than Vigorito's books and chesspublishing. The correct start for personal investigation.) There is no perfect book and there will never be.


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Bibs YaBB Moderator Offline Posts: 2342 Joined: 10/24/06	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #143 - 04/20/12 at 13:24:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	<WRITING AS A MODERATOR> Hi, Firstly well played to fluffy/Vigorito for not getting too riled and for a restrained response. I suspect, as fluffy suggests, that as with many forumite comments here, Nikos'/Ametanoitos' language is more direct than intended and there is a lack of nuance due to writing in a second language. (Much direct experience of this as a long term expat in Japan, and as a language teacher). Perhaps it might be helpful to keep to specifics as Nikos has just done, rather than vaguer 'lots is wrong' comments. Helpful to give warnings, more helpful to provide specific analysis. Let's keep this civil, polite, mutually respectful, and let's keep it specific.


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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #142 - 04/20/12 at 13:20:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm not a moderator of this sub-forum, but I think it would be better if this discussion took place privately. For me at least it's unfortunate to see two authors, both of whom I respect and whose book/books I really like, arguing profusely in public against each other.

	All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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fluffy Senior Member Offline International Master Posts: 250 Location: Boston Joined: 08/01/05 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #141 - 04/20/12 at 12:12:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	finally a concrete example! you have insulted me several times (maybe it's a language thing and it was not intentional), but I do not recall seeing concrete examples other than you do not like the Panno or something along those lines. And if I refused your 'files' a few years ago I make no apologies - why would I be scouring the analysis of an unknown (to me, at the time) 2100 player. You always act so high and mighty because you are such a famous GM-helper, but your writing resume is still just coauthoring a Tarrasch book with a well respected GM. Of course you were slinging arrows before you had even done this... It's a very good book, by the way, although I personally do not like the opening. Ok, I am done! I already regret being baited by you (again!).


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #140 - 04/20/12 at 09:29:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	I wrote: "A warning for those that intent to follow my advice and give their soul to the KID (a good thing to do if you are ambitious): If you use Vigorito, please check everything carefully. Lot's of good stuff, but some places are just bad." fluffy wrote on 04/19/12 at 15:08:55: I am reminded of Tiviakov's famous review of Dearing's Dragon book where he basically said, 'everything is wrong, but I am not going to say why.' Except that Tivi is 2690 or so... How you are reminded of "Everything is wrong, but I am not going to say why." from my " Lot's of good stuff, but some places are just bad" when i have already given examples of errors from your book is way beyong my understanding. Really... This comparison is just wrong and i could say a bit insulting for me.


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #139 - 04/20/12 at 09:22:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	@fluffy: I really cannot understand why you continue to think that i have something personal against you. I invited you at the QC blog to contact me in order to give you the files i made while working on your books. You didn't do that and you continue to invite me to show details to the public about the errors in your book. By the way, i posted some of them in the QC blog but you said nothing. Anyway... I'll give you the most annoying example of a big error in your book. If someone plays the KID using your recommendation in the page 58 against a well booked up player he will go down without a fight from analysis well known from 2003! These are some of the details: Download game in pgn format There is a lot of original work in the 2 books and a very good "ggathering" of all the sources available. So, it is a great starting point for work. BUT, without independent analysis you cannot do something more serious than play the KID and have fun only at trhe local club games. An example is that 17...Rf7 move that provides the solution for Black but in the Vigorito book you'll find it dismissed with a footnote that fails to see the essence of the position. This is where independent work is needed. Edit: I would also like to add that Golubev's 18...Nxb4 (which is given as an alternative in the book as a footnote) has been refuted also. 19.Qb3 g4 20.Nc6!


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proustiskeen God Member Offline Hello from Omaha! Posts: 681 Joined: 08/11/08	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #138 - 04/19/12 at 21:08:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	I recently played a game in this line, and had prepared the heck out of it beforehand with the computer, sources, etc. Because I was able to get so much good material from this very forum in this line, I'd like to give back. Special thanks to BPaulsen, who I cite in the analysis. Sadly I didn't play very well, but I did get 23 moves into my preparation. At my level (1700ish) that's not too bad. Here's hoping you find this useful! Cliff notes version: I don't think Shankland's line holds up. Specifically, 24...a6 and 26...Qg6 look like real improvements.

	shankland_19Rc6.pgn ( 10 KB \| 395 Downloads )
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fluffy Senior Member Offline International Master Posts: 250 Location: Boston Joined: 08/01/05 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #137 - 04/19/12 at 20:55:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	the Bologan book has many strange errors actually, but I did not point some of them out because in general they were not relevant to my repertoire. Bologan is a great player and overall it's an excellent book, but a sharp-eyed reader may find some odd things. In one of the main lines in the Samisch, he reaches the same normal position via two very common move orders and reaches completely different conclusions! I actually think that this was probably not Bologan himself, but a member of the chess-stars "team".


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