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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? (Read 58635 times)
dfan
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #10 - 11/29/10 at 15:23:52
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If you're studying the modern Steinitz you may want to check out the games of the young American GM Robert Hess; he plays it a lot.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #9 - 11/29/10 at 15:08:04
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Yes what's wrong with the modern Steinitz!!

Must say I'm seriously considering putting it on my repertoire. What is holding me back somewhat is lack of recent good books about it, as well as the work (time) I have to put into it. The former reason is also it's advantage - it's very much out of fashion (white may not be familiar with it, or with the types of positions arising) while it's not bad at all. In fact some relatively recent developments have made it quite playable. 

So what has white got after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6?

-He can go 4.Bc6: dc6: 5.d4, but then black should be quite OK with the double-edged 5. ...f6!? keeping the tension in the centre and the bishops pair.

-He can go 4.0-0 after which black has the very double-edged 4. ... Bg4!? 5.h3 h5 where black should be OK with Yandemirov's novely 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 Nd4: 8.hg4: Nb3:! 9.ab3: hg4: 10.Ng5 Qd7! followed by ...f6. Also the more tame 6.Bc6:+ bc6: 7.d4 Bf3: 8.Qf3: ed4: seems quite OK for black.

-And then the "Siesta variation" (Capablanca) has been revitalised: 4.c3 f5!? 5.ef5: Bf5: 6.0-0! (better than 6.d4 e4 with double-edged play and good chances for black) 6. ... Bd3 7.Re1 Be7 8.Bc2! Bc2: 9.Qc2: Nf6 10.d4 e4 11.Ng5 d5 12.f3 h6 13.Nh3 0-0 and black is basically OK.

-The famous Noah's ark trap goes 4.d4?! b5 5.Bb3 Nd4: 6.Nd4: ed4: 7.Qd4:?? (7.c3 is unclear) c5 8.Qd5 Be6 9.Qc6+ Bd7 10.Qd5 c4 and black wins. There are some other move 4 alternatives that are not dangerous for black, like 4.c4 (Maroczy) where black is OK after 4. ... Bg4.

All this lot then lead to very sharp positions where it's not easy at all for white to show any advantage.

So yes indeed - what's wrong with the modern Steinitz!!
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #8 - 04/10/08 at 02:37:07
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Good on yer! -- look forward to hearing your thoughts sometime! I confess I haven't looked at the line M'dov played against Leko, which is a bit silly/illogical, but I'm sure I will in due course. Meanwhile my Cozio thread seems so far to have proven a lead balloon! Maybe I should give up my habitual attempts to rescue purportedly suboptimal defences! -- but then, if Radjabov had thought that ... (Plus it's fun!)
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #7 - 04/10/08 at 01:13:46
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Unfortunately I haven't gotten around to examining your suggestions in any detail yet, but rest assured I haven't forgotten this thread and will post my thoughts in due course.

Hopefully in the meantime somebody good will risk the line against Leko, but it seems like at the top only Mamedyarov has faith in this defence.

Regards, 

Toppy Smiley

  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #6 - 04/10/08 at 00:05:45
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Should I take it that you take my points here then, Toppy? -- (1) is OK, (2) isn't, (3) is but could be tedious to keep repeating?  Wink
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #5 - 03/26/08 at 22:01:05
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Excellent post, TopNotch! – thanks. A great example of it being concrete moves, and not opinions, which push the debate on! As is obvious, I had completely underestimated/ignored the deferred Bxc6 ideas. I’d love to ‘rescue’ the Steinitz from the Tal-based assaults on it, but it ain’t easy! Here are my thoughts so far.

(1) After 5 …Nge7, are the 6 c3 Bd7 lines really so bad for Black after 12 …Nf6 or 12 …c5? Whatever the case here, 6 d4!? looks potentially very dangerous! But 6 …ed 7 Nd4 (7 c3 d3 might be OK?) Bd7!? (I think Black is suffering after 7 …b5 8 Nc6) might be worth investigating? (Just a thought -- I haven’t really looked at this yet.)

(2) In the 5 …Nf6 6 Bc6 bc 7 d4 line, I guess Black has to try 7 …ed (I had “7 …Be7!?, Malaniuk” in my notes, but unfortunately the manoeuvre Na3-c4 looks just to refute this) 8 Qd4 c5 9 Qd3 Be7 10 Re1 0-0 11 Nc3 Bb7, but although these moves can be played in various orders I think White retains an annoying edge.

(3) 5…Bd7 6 d4 Nf6 looks to me the soundest bet. Tal--Knaak but with 11 …0-0 might not be too bad, but I notice that 10 …0-0 has been tried in a few games. Now after 11 Nc6 obviously White has better pawns, but his position has lost a lot of its dynamic potential and it’s no wonder Tal has preferred 11 Nf5. But Black can regroup with …Nd7 and …Bf6 (and similarly after Bf4 or b3/Bb2) -- can White prove a real advantage after that?
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #4 - 03/23/08 at 13:49:52
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Quote:
Ruy Lopez - Deferred Steinitz [C73]
Analysis, 13.01.2008
[Toppy]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Nf6 6.Bxc6+!? bxc6 7.d4! intending Nxe4?! 8.Qe2!

Also good is 8.Re1 f5 9.dxe5 d5 10.Nc3! (10.Nd4 Qh4!) 10...Bc5 11.Be3 Bxe3 12.Rxe3 0-0 13.Nd4 Qe8 14.f3± Boleslavsky-Smyslov/Moscow/1941

8...f5 9.Nbd2 Nxd2 10.Nxd2 e4 11.f3 d5 12.fxe4 fxe4 13.Qh5+!

13.Nxe4! Müller 13...dxe4 14.Qxe4+ Be7 15.Bg5+-

13...g6 14.Qe5+ Qe7 15.Qxh8+-


Filling some space I'd like to give some variations after the possible 10...Qe7 (preferred by my chess engine) to show some potential of the position - especially if Black acts greedy:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

11.dxe5 Qxe5 (11...de5?!) 12.Qd1 Kf7 13.Re1 Qf6 14.Nf3 Kg8 15.Bg5 Qxb2 16.Qd3 d5
(16...Bd7 17.Reb1+-)
(16....Qb5 17.c4 Qa4 18.Re8 h6 (18...Kf7 19.Rxc8) 19.Nh4+-)
(16...Qb6 17.Re8 h6 18.Rae1 (18.Be7?! Kf7 19.Rxc8 Bxe7 20.Qxf5+ Bf6 21.Qd7+ =) 18. ... hxg5 19.Qe2 Kh7 20.Rxc8 Rxc8 21.Qe6 g6 22.Nxg5+ Kh6 23.Nf7+ Kh7 24.Nxh8 Kxh8 25.Qxc8+-) 
17.a4 
(17.Reb1?! Qa3 18.Rb3 Qd6) 
17...Rb8 18.c3 Qb7 19.Rab1 Qa8 20.Rxb8 Qxb8 21.Re8+ +-
  
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TopNotch
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #3 - 03/22/08 at 19:33:26
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LOL!!

I really hadn't expected someone to respond so fast before I got the chance to fill in the space.
 
You must be a mean Bullet player  Grin

Topster Smiley
  

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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #2 - 03/22/08 at 19:10:26
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Quote:
[WATCH THIS SPACE]

Space - the final frontier. Where no one has gone before - Topster: you did it  Cool

Edit: Meanwhile SPACE has turned into massive INFORMATION - its like E=mc2
« Last Edit: 03/23/08 at 07:49:52 by Matemax »  
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TopNotch
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #1 - 03/22/08 at 19:04:51
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Michael Ayton wrote on 03/12/08 at 00:30:07:

I’ve asked ‘What’s wrong with it?’, since this variation of the Spanish has a somewhat controversial reputation. A few years ago now, Paddy (I think it was -- he’ll correct me if I’m wrong) teasingly related that an English GM (?; he didn’t say who ...) had told him there wasn’t likely to be a book written on this line since it was felt White had at least one route to a safe advantage. That, however, was pre-Mamedyarov ... More recently, Topnotch, in another thread, recommended for White the line Leko has twice used to beat Mamedyarov at Corus: 5 0-0 Bd7 6 d4 ed 7 Nd4 b5 8 Nc6 Bc6 9 Bb3 Nf6 and now: 10 Nc3 0-0 11 Re1 0-0 12 a4 (2006), or 10 c4 Be7 11 Nc3 0-0 12 Re1 (2008). Black, however, has move orders which rule this out.

Move orders can be critical here. For example, after 5 0-0 Black is unlikely to start with 5 …g6?! since 6 d4 is strong, whereas after 5 c3, 5 …g6 looks playable. As Leko’s line shows, Black must, of course, always be prepared for a quick d2-d4. But after 5 ...Bd7 6 d4, instead of taking Black could play 6...Nf6 -- how then can White advantageously stop him reaching mainline positions? Even supposing he can, Black might also have 5 ...Nf6, since 6 d4 b5!? (6 …Bd7!?) 7 Bb3 (7 de de is nothing?) Nd4 8 Nd4 de 9 c3 dc 10 e5 c2 is meant to be unclear. (There’s also 5 …Ne7, but that’s another story/thread.)

So -- what’s wrong with the Modern Steinitz?


Michael Ayton wrote on 02/28/08 at 11:55:07:
@ Toppy: in the Deferred Steinitz with 5 0-0, what do you think is Leko's intention after (A) 5 ...Bd7 6 d4 Nf6, (B) 5 ...Nf6, and (C) 5 ...Ne7?!


I cannot say with any certainty what Leko has in mind against the options you mentioned, but I can share with you in a bit more detail why I like his approach and why I agree with Paddy's Grandmaster that Black has problems in this line.

So lets take a closer look at the three alternatives you gave to Mamedyarov's chosen line, and confirm whether they promise Black an easier life:

Ruy Lopez - Deferred Steinitz [C73]
Analysis, 13.01.2008
[Toppy]


1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Nf6 6.Bxc6+!? bxc6 7.d4! intending Nxe4?! 8.Qe2!

Also good is 8.Re1 f5 9.dxe5 d5 10.Nc3! (10.Nd4 Qh4!) 10...Bc5 11.Be3 Bxe3 12.Rxe3 0-0 13.Nd4 Qe8 14.f3± Boleslavsky-Smyslov/Moscow/1941 

8...f5 9.Nbd2 Nxd2 10.Nxd2 e4 11.f3 d5 12.fxe4 fxe4 13.Qh5+! 

13.Nxe4! Müller 13...dxe4 14.Qxe4+ Be7 15.Bg5+-  

13...g6 14.Qe5+ Qe7 15.Qxh8+-


Tal,M (2635) - Knaak,R (2515) [C79]
Halle DSV Halle, 1974
[Toppy]


1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 e5 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bd7 6.d4 Nf6 7.Bxc6!?

Tal was a big expert in this line, and this exchange is a familiar theme for us : 7.Re1 Be7 8.Bxc6 Bxc6 9.Nc3 transposes to the mainline  

7...Bxc6 8.Re1 Be7

8...Nxe4? 9.d5 Wins; 8...Bxe4 9.Nc3 Gives white a strong initiative 9.Nc3 exd4 [9...0-0? Is a well known, but east to overlook trap 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.Qxd8 Raxd8 12.Nxe5 Bxe4 13.Nxe4 Nxe4 14.Nd3 f5 15.f3 Bc5+ 16.Nxc5 Nxc5 17.Bg5 Rde8 18.Be7+- Black will be an exchange down without compensation 

10.Nxd4 Bd7 11.Qf3 Bg4? 

Tal:"A pseudo - active continuation." 11...0-0 12.Bf4 (or 12.Nf5) 12...Re8+/=

12.Qg3 Qd7 13.h3 Bh5

13...Be6!? 14.e5! dxe5 15.Nxe6 fxe6 (15...Qxe6 16.Rxe5) 16.Qxe5±  

14.Nf5 0-0-0 15.Bg5+- Ng8!? 

15...Bg6 16.Nxe7+ Qxe7 17.Nd5 Qe6 18.Bxf6 gxf6 19.Qc3 c6 20.Nxf6 

16.Bxe7! 

16.Nxe7+!? Nxe7 17.Qh4 f6 18.Qxh5± 

16...Nxe7 17.Qg5 Nxf5?

17...Nc6 18.Qxh5 g6 19.Nxd6+ Qxd6 20.Qg4+ Kb8 21.a3+-

18.exf5 g6 19.g4 Qc6

19...gxf5 20.Qxh5 fxg4 21.hxg4 Rhg8 22.Kf1 Rxg4 23.Re7+-

20.f6 d5 21.Re7 h6 22.Qe5 d4!? 23.Ne2 Rd5 24.Nxd4! 1-0



Nikolenko,O (2510) - Frog,I (2415) [C70]
RUS-Cup03 (Geller mem) Moscow (4), 13.02.1999
[Toppy]


1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nge7 5.0-0 d6 6.d4

Sticking with our theme, but with the Black knight misplaced on e7 preferable maybe the standard Spanish build up of  [6.c3 Bd7 7.d4 Ng6 8.d5 Nb8 9.c4! White has a useful space advantage on the Queeniside and a nagging edge, while Black is very  cramped. Strategically the type of play that occurs here is typical of the Classical Kings Indian, except that Black's counterplay is far less effective. 

6...b5 7.Bb3 Nxd4 8.Nxd4 exd4 9.c3 dxc3 

9...d3 is perhaps less dangerous.; 9...Bb7 10.Qf3! f5 11.cxd4 Bxe4 12.Qe2+- 

10.Nxc3 Be6

10...Ng6 11.f4 Be7 12.Qh5 Bf6 (12...0-0 13.Nd5 Be6? 14.f5 Bxd5 15.fxg6+- 1-0 Kindermann,S-Castro Rojas,O/Novi Sad 1990/TD (20)) 13.e5! dxe5 14.Rd1 (The immediate 14.f5 is also quite strong) 14...Bd7  (14...Qe7 15.Nd5 Qd8 16.fxe5 Bxe5 (or 16...Nxe5 17.Nxf6+ Qxf6 18.Re1+-) 17.Bg5 Qd7 18.Nf6+ gxf6 19.Rxd7+/-) 15.f5 +/- 

11.f4 Bxb3 12.axb3 Nc6 13.Nd5 Ne7 14.Be3 

There is an old rule of thumb saying that a couple of tempi are worth a pawn. Well White is approximately three moves ahead here, so it's hardly a surprise that Black is worse. 

14...c5 15.f5 Nxd5 16.Qxd5 Ra7 17.Rfd1 Qa8

17...Be7? 18.Bxc5 dxc5 19.Qc6+ Rd7 20.Rxa6+-

18.b4! Qxd5 19.Rxd5 Be7 20.bxc5 dxc5 21.Bxc5 Bxc5+ 22.Rxc5± 

White wins a pawn and went on to score the victory on move sixty.


Despite being cramped the Deferred Steintz remains eminently playable, nevertheless it seems to me that White has few problems establishing a comfortable advantage with minimal risk.

Toppy Smiley
« Last Edit: 03/23/08 at 02:55:09 by TopNotch »  

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Michael Ayton
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The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
03/12/08 at 00:30:07
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I’ve noticed there’s been a bit of interest on the Forum recently (from Bibs and others) in the Modern Steinitz, so I thought I’d open a couple of new threads on it. This one is intended to be general, but also to focus on the Modern Fianchetto Variation (C79) as played by Keres; the other one will be on the older Rubinstein Variation (C75) and the interesting Bronstein Variation (C76). Here, I've considered only 5 0-0 and 5 c3, since the possible move orders and transpositions here alone are quite baffling enough for me. (I’m certainly not suggesting other people should be so limited, though!)

I’ve asked ‘What’s wrong with it?’, since this variation of the Spanish has a somewhat controversial reputation. A few years ago now, Paddy (I think it was -- he’ll correct me if I’m wrong) teasingly related that an English GM (?; he didn’t say who ...) had told him there wasn’t likely to be a book written on this line since it was felt White had at least one route to a safe advantage. That, however, was pre-Mamedyarov ... More recently, Topnotch, in another thread, recommended for White the line Leko has twice used to beat Mamedyarov at Corus: 5 0-0 Bd7 6 d4 ed 7 Nd4 b5 8 Nc6 Bc6 9 Bb3 Nf6 and now: 10 Nc3 0-0 11 Re1 0-0 12 a4 (2006), or 10 c4 Be7 11 Nc3 0-0 12 Re1 (2008). Black, however, has move orders which rule this out.

Mainline MFV theory (such as there is!) begins after, to cite just one rather arbitrary move order, 5 0-0 Bd7 6 c3 Nf6 7 d4 g6 8 Re1 b5 9 Bb3(!) Bg7. Matulovic-Keres went [u]10 h3[/u] 0-0 11 Bg5 h6 12 Bh4 and Black held the balance with 12 ... Qe8! (a common theme) 13 a4 Nh5. Against [u]10 Nbd2[/u], Nigel Davies has succeeded with 10 …0-0 11 Nf1 h6 (idea 12 ...Re8), while [u]10 de[/u] Ne5! 11 Ne5 de is, I believe, meant to be OK for Black after 12 Bg5 h6 13 Bh4 0-0 or 12 Be3 Qe7 13 f3 0-0. My ancient notes suggest a White edge after [u]10 Bg5!?[/u] h6 11 Bh4 0-0 12 a4!?, but I’d like to ask what’s wrong with, say, 12 …ed here (13 cd g5!?).

Move orders can be critical here. For example, after 5 0-0 Black is unlikely to start with 5 …g6?! since 6 d4 is strong, whereas after 5 c3, 5 …g6 looks playable. As Leko’s line shows, Black must, of course, always be prepared for a quick d2-d4. But after 5 ...Bd7 6 d4, instead of taking Black could play 5 ...Nf6 -- how then can White advantageously stop him reaching mainline positions? Even supposing he can, Black might also have 5 ...Nf6, since 6 d4 b5!? (6 …Bd7!?) 7 Bb3 (7 de de is nothing?) Nd4 8 Nd4 de 9 c3 dc 10 e5 c2 is meant to be unclear. (There’s also 5 …Ne7, but that’s another story/thread.)

So -- what’s wrong with the Modern Steinitz?
  
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