ChessPub Forum - At last i got the chance to play my novelty!

ArKheiN God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 728 Location: Belgium Joined: 03/30/05	Re: At last i got the chance to play my novelty! Reply #30 - 04/07/08 at 06:29:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ok thank you, so 12.0-0 Bxd4! is the way to go if you want to win a pawn (White can regain it, but is forced to give back his black bishop for that) but as you say, 12..0-0 might be a better choice.


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: At last i got the chance to play my novelty! Reply #29 - 04/06/08 at 23:27:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7. Bc4 c5 8.Ne2 Nc6 9. Be3 cxd4 10. cxd4 Qa5+ 11. Bd2 Qh5 12. O-O Bxd4 13. Nxd4 Qxd1 14. Rfxd1 Nxd4 15.Bc3 (15. Bh6 Nc6 16. Rac1 Be6 17. Bb5 Rc8) 15... e5 16. Bxd4 exd4 17.Rxd4 Ke7 18. Rc1 (18.Rad1 Rb8 ) 18... Be6 19. Bxe6 Kxe6 20. Rcd1 (20.Rc7 Rhd8) 20... Rhc8 21. Rd6+ (21. Rd7 Rc1) (21. f4 Rc7) 21... Ke7 22.Rd7+ Ke8 (22... Kf8 23. Rxb7) 23. Rxb7 Rab8 (23... Rd8 24. Rxd8+ Rxd8 25.Kf1 Rd4 26. Rxa7 Rxe4 27. Ra3) (23... Rcb8 24. Rdd7 Rxb7 25. Rxb7 Rc8 26. g3 Rc4 27. Rxa7 Rxe4 28. Ra3) 24. Rxa7 Rc2 25. a4 (25. g3 Rbb2) 25... Rbb2 26. Rf1 Re2 $1 27. g3 (27. a5 Ra2 28. a6 Rxe4 ) 27... Ra2 (27...Rxe4 28. Rc1) 28. a5 Kf8 29. a6 Rxe4 This is the impressive analysis from Atalik in informant 77. I hope i haven't done a criminal! The truth is that i have only pasted a very small part of the original analysis of his game against Graf. So, my friends is that all you've got against the "Amatanoitos variation" and you are trying to revive variations that are known to be harmless? In the same game Atalik gives just one line after 12...O-O! which would be my choice ofcourse!


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LeeRoth God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 1520 Joined: 10/22/05	Re: At last i got the chance to play my novelty! Reply #28 - 04/06/08 at 15:46:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	ArKheiN wrote on 04/06/08 at 07:45:57: Maybe 12..0-0 is ok but 12..Nxd4 a forced draw? How do you improve the line I gave?: 13.Bc3 Be6 14.Bxd4 Bxc4 15.Bxg7 Bxe2 16.Qb3 or 16.Qb1 possibly +/-. How about 12..Nxd4 13.Nxd4 Bxd4 14.Qa4+. Isn't that good for White?


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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1977 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: At last i got the chance to play my novelty! Reply #27 - 04/06/08 at 13:55:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'd be interested to know this too. Also how should Black proceed after (1) 12 0-0 0-0 13 Be3; (2) 12 d5?


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ArKheiN God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 728 Location: Belgium Joined: 03/30/05	Re: At last i got the chance to play my novelty! Reply #26 - 04/06/08 at 07:45:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Maybe 12..0-0 is ok but 12..Nxd4 a forced draw? How do you improve the line I gave?: 13.Bc3 Be6 14.Bxd4 Bxc4 15.Bxg7 Bxe2 16.Qb3 or 16.Qb1 possibly +/-.


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: At last i got the chance to play my novelty! Reply #25 - 04/05/08 at 21:31:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	12.O-O is not a problem for Black. Atalik analysed 12...Nxd4 to a forced draw in chess informant. He also gives 12...O-O 13.Bc3 b6 as equal. No problems here....


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Fernando Semprun

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Re: At last i got the chance to play my novelty!
Reply #24 - 04/05/08 at 17:51:34

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Here is a recent game, though....

[Date "2007.10.29"]
[Round "2"]
[White "L'Ami, Erwin"]
[Black "Brkic, Ante"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2577"]
[BlackElo "2577"]
[EventDate "2007.10.28"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2007.11.14"]
[WhiteTeam "Netherlands"]
[BlackTeam "Croatia"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7. Bc4 c5 8.Ne2 Nc6 9. Be3 cxd4 10. cxd4 Qa5+ 11. Bd2 Qh5
12. O-O O-O 13. Bc3 b5 14. Bd5 Bb7 15. Rc1 Rac8 16. f3 Bh6 17. Bd2 Rfd8 18. Rc5 Nxd4 19. Bxf7+ Kxf7 20. Rxh5 Nxe2+ 21. Qxe2 Rxd2 22. Qxb5 gxh5 23. Qxb7 Rcc2 24. Qb3+ e6 25. Qb7+ Kg6 26.
Kh1 Rxg2 27. Rg1 Rxg1+ 28. Kxg1 Bf4 29. Qb3 Rc1+ 30. Kg2 e5 31. h4 Kf6 32. Qd3 Ke6 33. Qa6+ Kd7 34. Qxa7+ Kc6 35. a4 h6 36. Qf7 Kc5 1-0

I'll attempt to insert a diagram too.. (After white's 17.Bd2)

Fernando Semprun

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Fernando Semprun Senior Member Offline Be nice to others. Life is to be enjoyed! Posts: 402 Location: Madrid Joined: 04/29/03 Gender:	Re: At last i got the chance to play my novelty! Reply #23 - 04/05/08 at 17:45:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, for what is worth (I have become interested in this thread 3 mins ago) Mega 2008 has 12.0-0 as the choice of the highest ranking average, even though it scores less than 12.d5 and 12.Bc3 I have become to believe that very strong players are too rigid when mentioning 'best lines' as far as play at lower levels is concerned. At the 27xx level surely is a must to be precise, but even when a player comes with a new idea, then it becomes 'gospel' for most GM's... Well, Marin in his books and many others have proved that there are many, many playable systems. So Sakaev's ignoring 12.Bc3 and 12.0-0 is normal. Khalifman does the same in his OFWATA. Space reasons are also important too! I am going to have a look at the line, and thx ametanoitos for the ideas plus analysis...

	Fernando Semprun
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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1977 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: At last i got the chance to play my novelty! Reply #22 - 04/05/08 at 13:05:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm amazed Sakaev doesn't mention 12 0-0! I haven't found any other source mentioning it either. Maybe discussion's been short-circuited by the presumed strength of Bondarevsky's 12 d5, often given as good for White. Have ways been found for Black here or is this still critical too?


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ArKheiN God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 728 Location: Belgium Joined: 03/30/05	Re: At last i got the chance to play my novelty! Reply #21 - 04/05/08 at 10:07:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Everything is interesting. Iam a Grünfeld player and got many books about the subject including Sakaev's. I play the mains lines and played the ..Qc7 line before that but I never studied 10..Qa5+ deeply. I was only thinking about 11.Bd2 Qd8 12.Bc3 where it might be about +/=. But 11..Qh5 is interesting but I wondered: What do you play after 12.0-0!? (not mentionned in Sakaev's book) If you don't take the d-pawn I don't really see the point of the move Qa5-h5 now. And if you take it with 12..Nxd4, there are dangerous lines now like 13.Bc3 Be6 14.Bxd4 Bxc4 15.Bxg7 Bxe2 where White should have the advantage after 16.Qb3 or 16.Qb1. What is your improvment for Black here? I imagine that Black have to accept that they cannot take the pawn with 12..Nxd4 and continue development with 12..0-0 where a point of the queen move is to continue with 13..Rd8 after 13.Be3 but the Qh5 seems a bit misplaced to me. On 13.Bc3 Rybka gives 13..b5!? but I still want to see what you think about 12.0-0


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LeeRoth God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 1520 Joined: 10/22/05	Re: At last i got the chance to play my novelty! Reply #20 - 04/05/08 at 03:26:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Theory considers 15.Rc1 to be weaker. Black just castles and meets 16.Rc7 with 16...Rfd8. Now 17.Rxb7? Nc5 is brutal, 17.Qb1 b6 is considered equal, and 17.Qc2 Be5 18.Rxb7 Rdc8 19.Qb1 Nc5 20.Rb4 Qg4 is considered slightly better for Black. In his Gruenfeld book, Sakaev gives 15.Rb1! (his exclam) as White's only try for an edge.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: At last i got the chance to play my novelty! Reply #19 - 04/05/08 at 02:37:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 04/01/08 at 10:16:28: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7. Bc4 c5 8.Ne2 Nc6 9. Be3 cxd4 10. cxd4 Qa5+ 11. Bd2 Qh5 12. d5 Ne5 13. Bb5+ Bd7 14. Bxd7+ Nxd7 15. Rb1 Qg4 16. Qa4 O-O (Michael Ayton's proposal) 17. f3 Qxg2 18. Rg1 Qh3 19. Rg3 Qxh2 (19... Nc5 20. Rxh3 Nxa4 21. Rxb7 e6 22. dxe6 fxe6 this is the position i think Michael Ayton is talking about) 20. Qxd7 Bd4 21. Qh3 Bf2+ 22. Kd1 Bxg3 23. Qxg3 Qxg3 24. Nxg3 b6 is a very interesting and unbalanced ending! I think that white is a little better after both 19...Nc5 and 20...Qxh2 (which is a little stronger i think), but i wouldn't bother to be black! @Lee Roth: 16.Ng3 Qxd1 17.Kxd1 h5! is an improvement i have mentioned in an earlier post (i also have Sakaev's book and i have checked it carefully) Also after 16. Qa4 b6 17. Nf4 O-O 18. h3 Nc5 19. hxg4 Nxa4 20.Ke2 Rac8 21. Rhc1 Bb2! 22. Rxc8 Rxc8 23. Nd3 Nc3+ 24.Bxc3 Bxc3 25. e5 is not a good move as my old notes say! 25... Rd8! with a slight advantage for black. Yesterday i played a training game (with classical time controls) against a strong player from another club, in this position. We played 25.Rc1 Rc4 26. f3 b5 and we both had the feeling after the game that black has an edge at this point. We concluded that 22.Rc6 is a better move, but i think that black doesn't face any problems here also. Too deep. Instead of 15.Rb1, why not 15.Rc1?

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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LeeRoth God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 1520 Joined: 10/22/05	Re: At last i got the chance to play my novelty! Reply #18 - 04/01/08 at 19:51:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 04/01/08 at 10:16:28: 16.Ng3 Qxd1 17.Kxd1 h5! is an improvement i have mentioned in an earlier post Not to quibble, but your first post had 17.Rxd1 instead of 17.Kxd1. Quote: Also after 16. Qa4 b6 17. Nf4 O-O 18. h3 Nc5 19. hxg4 Nxa4 20.Ke2 Rac8 21. Rhc1 Bb2! 22. Rxc8 Rxc8 23. Nd3 Nc3+ 24.Bxc3 Bxc3 25. e5 is not a good move as my old notes say! 25... Rd8! with a slight advantage for black. I proposed 25.f4 for White. Quote: We concluded that 22.Rc6 is a better move. Maybe so.


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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1977 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: At last i got the chance to play my novelty! Reply #17 - 04/01/08 at 11:21:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote](19... Nc5 20. Rxh3 Nxa4 21. Rxb7 e6 22. dxe6 fxe6 this is the position i think Michael Ayton is talking about) [/quote] Yes that's right. A preliminary look with Rybka suggested Black has no problems, but I have to confess it was a very superficial look! The fascination continues! ...


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: At last i got the chance to play my novelty! Reply #16 - 04/01/08 at 10:16:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7. Bc4 c5 8.Ne2 Nc6 9. Be3 cxd4 10. cxd4 Qa5+ 11. Bd2 Qh5 12. d5 Ne5 13. Bb5+ Bd7 14. Bxd7+ Nxd7 15. Rb1 Qg4 16. Qa4 O-O (Michael Ayton's proposal) 17. f3 Qxg2 18. Rg1 Qh3 19. Rg3 Qxh2 (19... Nc5 20. Rxh3 Nxa4 21. Rxb7 e6 22. dxe6 fxe6 this is the position i think Michael Ayton is talking about) 20. Qxd7 Bd4 21. Qh3 Bf2+ 22. Kd1 Bxg3 23. Qxg3 Qxg3 24. Nxg3 b6 is a very interesting and unbalanced ending! I think that white is a little better after both 19...Nc5 and 20...Qxh2 (which is a little stronger i think), but i wouldn't bother to be black! @Lee Roth: 16.Ng3 Qxd1 17.Kxd1 h5! is an improvement i have mentioned in an earlier post (i also have Sakaev's book and i have checked it carefully) Also after 16. Qa4 b6 17. Nf4 O-O 18. h3 Nc5 19. hxg4 Nxa4 20.Ke2 Rac8 21. Rhc1 Bb2! 22. Rxc8 Rxc8 23. Nd3 Nc3+ 24.Bxc3 Bxc3 25. e5 is not a good move as my old notes say! 25... Rd8! with a slight advantage for black. Yesterday i played a training game (with classical time controls) against a strong player from another club, in this position. We played 25.Rc1 Rc4 26. f3 b5 and we both had the feeling after the game that black has an edge at this point. We concluded that 22.Rc6 is a better move, but i think that black doesn't face any problems here also.


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