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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Sources about Anti dutch systems? (Read 16562 times)
chk
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Re: Sources about Anti dutch systems?
Reply #24 - 04/17/08 at 11:03:14
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Good proposition, thanx (not sure if I can join a normal game though; I don't have a full version of Chessbase, so I can only enter Playchess in the room for guests).. but it'll have to wait as I'm currently ..ahem.. at work (you know.. working.. Tongue). tbh I don't play much on-line nowadays, (was trying to focus on books and OTB in order to improve a bit), but I may join Playchess over the next days for a few games.. (orthodox easter holidays are just around the corner).. Smiley
  

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rossia
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Re: Sources about Anti dutch systems?
Reply #23 - 04/17/08 at 08:29:05
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chk, you can play me on playchess server if you have Fritz!

Come on, you'll find my handle in your message inbox!

We can try some  Cool Cool Cool Leningrads  Cool Cool Cool
  
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chk
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Re: Sources about Anti dutch systems?
Reply #22 - 04/17/08 at 08:19:55
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Not quite sure I'm afraid as I haven't played many games. My actual international ELO is ~1820 (based on a handful of games) and my national ELO is ~400 points less (!). This year I was usually facing 1900-2200 opposition OTB with mixed to bad results, so I guess I can hold my own against 1900 and maybe against 2000 on a good day Grin

..but 2450(!) - that's way over my head.. Cry
  

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rossia
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Re: Sources about Anti dutch systems?
Reply #21 - 04/17/08 at 08:00:02
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Well that's nice to hear  Grin

I'm testing Leningard on playchess. de via Fritz 11 where I beat regulary those within 2000-2450 range.

Prior I played Chigorin against 1.d4 with bad results.

May I know what's your real ELO chk?
  
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chk
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Re: Sources about Anti dutch systems?
Reply #20 - 04/16/08 at 15:08:00
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rossia wrote on 04/15/08 at 17:40:02:

Thanks my friend. I see that you're quoting these lines from page 173 in Kindermann's book LENINGRAD SYSTEM.

Nobody can overthrow us in Leningrad!  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


Well good for you Wink. Alas, I've only been playing the Leni for a year now and feels like I'm still going upwards on the learning curve..
  

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Black_Widow
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Re: Sources about Anti dutch systems?
Reply #19 - 04/16/08 at 13:47:29
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I do not think 2 Nf3 and 3 Bg5 is more dangerous, then 2 Bg5. Altough I must admit that I find 2 Nf3 and 3 Bg5 harder to meet. 

I know a lot of gambit players who have good results, but I think it is the underestimation of the opponent, which is the cause of it. It is tricky to play against the Staunton, but practice works miracles for black and for having good results.
  
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Re: Sources about Anti dutch systems?
Reply #18 - 04/15/08 at 19:53:26
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I remember 2 Bg5, and 2 Nf3 and 3 Bg5, getting good citations in Batsford Chess Openings 2 (the latter line was given as "+=") but maybe improvements have been found for Black.   

There's apparently plenty of books written from Black's perspective against the Staunton Gambit, which is only good for equality, though I've generally had good results on the few occasions that I've tried it with White.
  
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Re: Sources about Anti dutch systems?
Reply #17 - 04/15/08 at 19:35:32
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rossia wrote on 04/15/08 at 17:40:02:
chk wrote on 04/15/08 at 16:32:15:
Edit: I see now that 'Rossia' has got me first!  Wink

"Maybe an extra chapter about various early deviations could have been added; what I primarily have in mind is the the move-order 1.d4 f5 2.e4. An experienced player will of course bypass this with 1...e6, but players with less experience may collect some painful lessons. As I have long since discovered, some GMs have found a secret and not yet played variation in the Staunton-Gambit 1.d4 f5 2.e4 which gives White a clear advantage."

Dutch players should thank Mr Rieger. So we get more Stauntons! Happy slapping everybody.
  
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drkodos
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Re: Sources about Anti dutch systems?
Reply #16 - 04/15/08 at 19:19:04
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rossia wrote on 04/15/08 at 17:40:02:


"Maybe an extra chapter about various early deviations could have been added; what I primarily have in mind is the the move-order 1.d4 f5 2.e4. An experienced player will of course bypass this with 1...e6, but players with less experience may collect some painful lessons. As I have long since discovered, some GMs have found a secret and not yet played variation in the Staunton-Gambit 1.d4 f5 2.e4 which gives White a clear advantage."

What you think about this silly comment from MARTIN RIEGER ?





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rossia
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Re: Sources about Anti dutch systems?
Reply #15 - 04/15/08 at 17:40:02
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chk wrote on 04/15/08 at 16:32:15:
Edit: I see now that 'Rossia' has got me first!  Wink


Thanks my friend. I see that you're quoting these lines from page 173 in Kindermann's book LENINGRAD SYSTEM.

Nobody can overthrow us in Leningrad!  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

What you think about this silly comment from MARTIN RIEGER (http://www.freechess.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=383&Itemid=2...

"Vielleicht hätte man noch ein Extrakapitel zu diversen Ablehnungen in das Buch aufnehmen können, ich denke hier in erster Linie an die Zugfolge 1.d4 f5 2.e4. Natürlich wird ein erfahrener Spieler diese mit 1…e6 umgehen, doch etwas unerfahrenere Spieler könnten hier schmerzvolle Erfahrungen machen. Wie ich unlängst erfahren habe, gibt es im Staunton-Gambit mit 1.d4 f5 2.e4 unter einigen Großmeistern eine noch geheime bisher nicht gespielte Variante, die Weiß deutlich im Vorteil sehen soll!"

In English this roughly translates to:

"Maybe an extra chapter about various early deviations could have been added; what I primarily have in mind is the the move-order 1.d4 f5 2.e4. An experienced player will of course bypass this with 1...e6, but players with less experience may collect some painful lessons. As I have long since discovered, some GMs have found a secret and not yet played variation in the Staunton-Gambit 1.d4 f5 2.e4 which gives White a clear advantage."
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: Sources about Anti dutch systems?
Reply #14 - 04/15/08 at 16:50:46
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About 2.Qd3 d6?! 3.Nc3! see my thread which nobody has answered yet: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1202745399

So I prefer 2. ... d5 when black is fine.
  
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chk
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Re: Sources about Anti dutch systems?
Reply #13 - 04/15/08 at 16:32:15
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How interesting.. I was actually preparing against this sideline a couple of weeks ago!  Shocked

(tbh my first thought was how come I haven't notice 2. Qd3 mentioned at the Chesspub forum??)

This sideline seems playable if you are a bit aggressive as White. Kindermann is in favour of 2. ... d6 (a bit in Leningrad style), however 2. ... d5 and 2. ... e6 are also playable. Check out the 2 following interesting lines:
a) 1.d4 f5 2.Qd3 d6 3.g4 fxg4 4.h3 g3!? 5.fxg3 and we play chess;
b) 1.d4 f5 2.Qd3 d6 3.e4 fxe4 4.Qxe4 Nf6 5.Qh4 Bf5!? 6.c3 e6 and Black has equalised

regards, chk

Edit: I see now that 'Rossia' has got me first!  Wink
  

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rossia
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Re: Sources about Anti dutch systems?
Reply #12 - 04/15/08 at 16:28:12
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Yes, here is the game:



Galego,L (2451) - Dias,P (2267) [A80]
Portuguese Masters Viseu (5), 16.02.2000
[Neil McDonald]

1.d4 f5 2.Qd3 d5 

Perhaps the best response to White's queen foray is to let him play e4, as it proves less dangerous than g4! For example
 
[2...d6!? 3.e4 (3.g4 still needs investigating. One possibility is 3...fxg4 4.h3 g3!? 5.fxg3 g6 etc.) 3...fxe4 4.Qxe4 Nf6 5.Qh4 Bf5 6.c3 e6 and Black was solidly placed in Lev-Soffer, Tel Aviv 1990.;
 
On the other hand, 2...g6 3.g4!? fxg4 4.h3 Nf6?! (4...g3! looks best.) 5.hxg4 Bg7 6.g5 Nh5 7.e4 d5 8.Bg2 Nc6 9.c3 was good for White in Alberdi-Hoang Thang Trang, Oviedo 1993.] 

3.g4!? 

Evidently Galego now prefers this to the more orthodox [3.c4 when after 3...e6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.g3 c6 6.Bg2 Bd6 7.Nh3 0-0 8.0-0 b6 9.Re1 Ba6 Black had found a way to exploit the position of the white queen in Galego- Ochoa de Echarguen, Cuba 1992.] 

3...fxg4 4.h3 Nf6 

A common recipe for Black in such positions is to give back the pawn to stabilise the kingside. However, [4...g3 hasn't worked out particularly well for Black, e.g. 5.fxg3 (5.Qxg3!?) 5...Nf6 6.Nc3 c6 7.e4 with an edge for White in Sorensen-Mortensen, Copenhagen 1994.] 

5.hxg4 Bxg4 6.f3 6...Bh5!

(Be6? This isn't a very happy square for the bishop, which will have to move again and so allow White to build up his game with gain of time)
  
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OstapBender
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Re: Sources about Anti dutch systems?
Reply #11 - 04/15/08 at 14:31:29
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trandism wrote on 04/15/08 at 10:05:00:
What about 1. d4 f5, 2.Qd3!?.

It's mentioned in the following pdf file featuring a game where White quickly follows with g2-g4:
http://www.chesscity.com/PDF/G-pawn_gambits_gco.pdf

The pdf file is a free excerpt from what appears to be a Schiller book (yeah, I know, but at least it's free).

The game Galego-Dias, Viseu 2000, annotated by Tisdall at the ChessPublishing site, also features an early g2-g4 by White:
Quote:
Here I want to introduce you to a highly interesting sideline: 2 Qd3!? If you are still reeling from the shock of such a childish looking queen move, then I hope you are sitting down when I tell you the main idea behind it is 3 g4. This looks as primitive as chess gets: White just aims at the f5 pawn, and then when it is defended he stabs at it with his g pawn, to clear lines for an attack on the black kingside. However, it can prove deadly in the right hands against the right opponent, as Galego-Dias demonstrates. If you are looking for something as White against the Dutch but don't want to learn the mainline, this could be the move for you. Alternatively if you are a Dutch afficiando who doesn't want 2 Qd3 nightmares, you should also study it carefully.
  

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trandism
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Re: Sources about Anti dutch systems?
Reply #10 - 04/15/08 at 10:05:00
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What about 1. d4 f5, 2.Qd3!?..

Do you guys have any experience on this with either the white or the black pieces?

I have something like 95% as white on this line playing on the chess servers up to 30 0 time controls but still reluctant to try it on the board..

  
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