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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3 (Read 18193 times)
Willempie
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #47 - 05/09/08 at 09:28:21
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linksspringer wrote on 05/09/08 at 09:18:10:
Willempie wrote on 05/09/08 at 08:45:59:
linksspringer wrote on 05/09/08 at 07:39:31:
quote Toppy: The line 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 e6?! is covered quite well from White's point of view in OFWATA

That line has already been refuted by Watson in DW:TF. I already scored an easy point in that line against a player slavishly following OFWATA.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Ne2 f6 7.Ng3 fxe5 8.dxe5 Bd7 9. Be3 Bc5 10.Bxc5 Nxc5 11.Qd2 O-O 12.Qe3 Qe7 13.O-O-O Na4! and black is already on the verge of winning.


14.Bb5 and I dont see it.


14.Bb5 doesn't stop the threat of Qb4. Then again, all attempts to prevent Qb4 fail anyway.

But 14.Bb5 Qb4 15.Qb3 certainly isnt scary and I think white is still better I opine. Black will be left with a bad bishop if he exchanges queens and his knights get a bit stranded if he doesnt.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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linksspringer
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #46 - 05/09/08 at 09:18:10
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Willempie wrote on 05/09/08 at 08:45:59:
linksspringer wrote on 05/09/08 at 07:39:31:
quote Toppy: The line 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 e6?! is covered quite well from White's point of view in OFWATA

That line has already been refuted by Watson in DW:TF. I already scored an easy point in that line against a player slavishly following OFWATA.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Ne2 f6 7.Ng3 fxe5 8.dxe5 Bd7 9. Be3 Bc5 10.Bxc5 Nxc5 11.Qd2 O-O 12.Qe3 Qe7 13.O-O-O Na4! and black is already on the verge of winning.


14.Bb5 and I dont see it.


14.Bb5 doesn't stop the threat of Qb4. Then again, all attempts to prevent Qb4 fail anyway.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #45 - 05/09/08 at 09:06:52
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Nice for Black at any rate though, innit?
  
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Willempie
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #44 - 05/09/08 at 08:45:59
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linksspringer wrote on 05/09/08 at 07:39:31:
quote Toppy: The line 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 e6?! is covered quite well from White's point of view in OFWATA

That line has already been refuted by Watson in DW:TF. I already scored an easy point in that line against a player slavishly following OFWATA.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Ne2 f6 7.Ng3 fxe5 8.dxe5 Bd7 9. Be3 Bc5 10.Bxc5 Nxc5 11.Qd2 O-O 12.Qe3 Qe7 13.O-O-O Na4! and black is already on the verge of winning.

14.Bb5 and I dont see it.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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linksspringer
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #43 - 05/09/08 at 07:39:31
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quote Toppy: The line 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 e6?! is covered quite well from White's point of view in OFWATA

That line has already been refuted by Watson in DW:TF. I already scored an easy point in that line against a player slavishly following OFWATA.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Ne2 f6 7.Ng3 fxe5 8.dxe5 Bd7 9. Be3 Bc5 10.Bxc5 Nxc5 11.Qd2 O-O 12.Qe3 Qe7 13.O-O-O Na4! and black is already on the verge of winning.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #42 - 05/09/08 at 04:38:26
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I still don't follow, Toppy. Two obvious questions: (1) McDonald suggests two improvements for Black on Becerra Rivero--Sarkar, so why is that game so important, and what do you think of the improvements?; (2) since not everyone has OFWATA, could you say briefly which line(s) call(s) Black's idea into question in your view?
  
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TopNotch
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #41 - 05/09/08 at 04:26:56
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Michael Ayton wrote on 05/09/08 at 00:16:12:
Sorry, I'm a bit confused -- precisely which position(s)/game(s) are you saying is/are inadequate for Black here?


Did I stutter, anyway I amended my previous post by adding some context to help clarify any confusion. Huh

Tops Smiley
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #40 - 05/09/08 at 00:16:12
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Sorry, I'm a bit confused -- precisely which position(s)/game(s) are you saying is/are inadequate for Black here?
  
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TopNotch
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #39 - 05/09/08 at 00:04:30
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TopNotch wrote on 05/08/08 at 21:40:55:
Michael Ayton wrote on 05/08/08 at 19:12:06:
I take it you've a good line against the trendy Hecht-Reefschlager then?  Smiley Will you share?

(When I last looked, I wasn't convinced that 3 ...de 4 d5 Nb8!? was so bad either, but I stand to be corrected here!)


I am embarrassed to admit that I don't know for sure what the Hecht-Reefschlager is, but would guess it has something to do with 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6?!  or the alternate move order 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 e6?!

Toppy Smiley


Michael Ayton wrote on 05/08/08 at 21:51:13:
That's the one! -- the moves you gave. Certain GMs seem to do very well with it and it's even found its way into the current French update! Can't be right though can it, blocking the c-pawn like that?  Grin



The line 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 e6?! is covered quite well from White's point of view in OFWATA. While in Neil's Update the game and particularly the notes to Becerra vs Sarkar 2006 warrant careful study for anyone contemplating this line for Black.

I honestly hope the future of the French does not depend on the viability of the position after the rare 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6?!  Wink

Toppy Smiley
« Last Edit: 05/09/08 at 04:23:05 by TopNotch »  

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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #38 - 05/08/08 at 22:51:04
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SWJediknight wrote on 05/08/08 at 22:28:42:
I often play the Portuguese/Jadoul Variation with Black and reach a similar position, e.g. 1 e4 d5 2 exd5 Nf6 3 d4 Bg4 4 Nf3 Qxd5 5 d4 Nc6 transposes.  It might arise by transposition from the Nimzo but I'm pretty sure most would consider it a line of the Scandinavian.   
[...]
Anyway, from experience I consider these lines of the Scandinavian to be quite playable for Black- though I'm prepared to concede that White has an edge with accurate play.  The idea of kicking the Black queen with c2-c4 first as in TopNotch's lines, rather than Nb1-c3, seems to be the most definite way to get an edge, as the c-pawn can be used to support a queenside pawn storm.


Glad to get some Scandinavian input!  Cool
The full Portuguese transposition is: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Nf3 Qxd5 5.Be2 Nc6 6.c4 Qf5 7.Be3 0-0-0 8.Nc3
What do your sources on the Portuguese consider best play in this position?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #37 - 05/08/08 at 22:32:23
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Yes, I'm tempted to agree. I was trying to use 'hypermodern' more figuratively (or rather echo TopNotch's use) as more broadly contradicting classical precepts, but neither the Nimzo proper nor the Kevitz-Mikenas really embodies the historical hypermodern ethos. Still, some lines of the latter, at least, could be said to approach it, with themes like ...Bb4 pinning a Nc3 and threatening ...Nf6xe4, analogous to some lines of the Bogolyubov and Kevitz-Trajkovic ("Black Knights' Tango") Defences which themselves can echo/incorporate "Indian" themes.

Of course, when 2 Nf3 g6!! gains ground, you'll be back to 2 d4, Sacapawn!  Cheesy
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #36 - 05/08/08 at 22:28:42
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I often play the Portuguese/Jadoul Variation with Black and reach a similar position, e.g. 1 e4 d5 2 exd5 Nf6 3 d4 Bg4 4 Nf3 Qxd5 5 d4 Nc6 transposes.  It might arise by transposition from the Nimzo but I'm pretty sure most would consider it a line of the Scandinavian.   

I'm not sure if 1 e4 Nc6 is much of a hypermoden opening- most hypermodern openings have Black wait until well after the second move to lash out in the centre.  In my view it's not much more "hypermodern" than the Scandinavian, if at all.  I'm not convinced that it's any less sound than the Scandinavian, and it's certainly sounder than the Elephant, Latvian etc.  Slightly inferior yes, but not unsound.   

I'm not sure where 1 e4 Nc6 would fit in with chess history as it's always been offbeat; the Scandinavian is even trickier to pinpoint as it's become very popular at club level, and seemingly in women's chess also, in the last decade, but until then was always considered offbeat.

Anyway, from experience I consider these lines of the Scandinavian to be quite playable for Black- though I'm prepared to concede that White has an edge with accurate play.  The idea of kicking the Black queen with c2-c4 first as in TopNotch's lines, rather than Nb1-c3, seems to be the most definite way to get an edge, as the c-pawn can be used to support a queenside pawn storm.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #35 - 05/08/08 at 22:10:23
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A hypermodern opening is one where the center of the board is controlled by pieces instead of pawns. The term was used (first?) by Tartakower in his book Die Hypermoderne Schachpartie from 1924.

A number of popular openings can be classified as hypermodern, such as the Nimzoindian, Queen's Indian, Grunfeld, King's Indian, Modern Defence, Pirc and Alekhine's Defence. Anyone who has looked at master games played after about 1925-1930 has seen "hypermodern" openings in action. I assume most people visiting this forum has a basic understanding why the Indian defences are playable alternatives to the Queens Gambit Defence, i.e. understand why a "hypermodern" (hence not very "modern") opening can be playable. The concept sounds more difficult than it really is.

I don't think the line discussed in this thread fits the definition of a hypermodern opening very well though.

As for concrete moves I used to play 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 but since 2.Nf3 most of the times is met with 2...d5 I have changed to this.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #34 - 05/08/08 at 21:51:13
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That's the one! -- the moves you gave. Certain GMs seem to do very well with it and it's even found its way into the current French update! Can't be right though can it, blocking the c-pawn like that?  Grin
  
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TopNotch
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #33 - 05/08/08 at 21:40:55
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Michael Ayton wrote on 05/08/08 at 19:12:06:
I take it you've a good line against the trendy Hecht-Reefschlager then?  Smiley Will you share?

(When I last looked, I wasn't convinced that 3 ...de 4 d5 Nb8!? was so bad either, but I stand to be corrected here!)


I am embarrassed to admit that I don't know for sure what the Hecht-Reefschlager is, but would guess it has something to do with 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6?!  or the alternate move order 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 e6?!

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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