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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3 (Read 12752 times)
realpolitik
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #77 - 05/19/08 at 19:29:29
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linksspringer wrote on 05/19/08 at 13:17:50:
realpolitik wrote on 05/19/08 at 13:02:01:
gipc wrote on 05/18/08 at 17:55:41:


I have analyzed this variation deeply and after 6.c4 Qf5 7.Be3 Bxf3 (or Qa5+ !?) black are clearly better !

3.d4 ?! Nc6 4.Cf3 Bg4 is very good for black  Cool


Black is clearly better in this variation?? What do you play after 7...Bxf3 8Bxf3 Nxd4 9Bg4 after 9..Nc2+ 11Qxc2 Qxg4 120-0 a6 white can play 13b4 or 13c5 in both cases with a strong attack. This was already discussed in the thread about Wisnewskis book.


realpolitik, what do you think of this (like I mentioned earlier in this thread):
9. Bg4 Nc2+ 10.Qxc2 Qxg4 11.O-O Qg6 12.Qa4 Qa6 13.Qxa6 bxa6 14.Bxa7 e6 15.Nc3 Nf6 16.Rfd1 1/2-1/2 (Yoos-Perez Garcia)
No black advantage, but at least a safe way to equality?


yes linksspringer i suppose black can reach equality if white obligingly swaps queens but there is no compulsion on him to do so. white can play for an attack with Qb3. probably black can still hold equality after this but he still has some problems to solve. this suggestion seems better than gipc's earlier one though. then again he says that he subjected this position to deep analysis and that black is clearly better so maybe he has something in store against b4!?!  
  
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realpolitik
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #76 - 05/19/08 at 19:18:22
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gipc wrote on 05/19/08 at 16:39:24:
realpolitik wrote on 05/19/08 at 13:02:01:
What do you play after 7...Bxf3 8Bxf3 Nxd4 9Bg4 after 9..Nc2+ 11Qxc2 Qxg4 120-0 a6 white can play 13b4 or 13c5 in both cases with a strong attack. This was already discussed in the thread about Wisnewskis book.


I saw that...but I consider black can face up with this attack easily  Wink
For instance in the game Dominguez-Matamoros  15...Qb3 ! is the right move and it's over.
11...e6 is also playable


after e6 surely white can just take the pawn thats hanging on a7? and btw lets say for arguments sake 15c5 does not work (which I am not at all sure about) what do you play against 15b4 for example 15...Qg6 16Qa4 e5 17Nc3 and black seems to be experiencing problems. i do not see how you can suggest this position is easy for black.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #75 - 05/19/08 at 16:39:24
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realpolitik wrote on 05/19/08 at 13:02:01:
What do you play after 7...Bxf3 8Bxf3 Nxd4 9Bg4 after 9..Nc2+ 11Qxc2 Qxg4 120-0 a6 white can play 13b4 or 13c5 in both cases with a strong attack. This was already discussed in the thread about Wisnewskis book.


I saw that...but I consider black can face up with this attack easily  Wink
For instance in the game Dominguez-Matamoros  15...Qb3 ! is the right move and it's over.
11...e6 is also playable
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #74 - 05/19/08 at 13:17:50
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realpolitik wrote on 05/19/08 at 13:02:01:
gipc wrote on 05/18/08 at 17:55:41:


I have analyzed this variation deeply and after 6.c4 Qf5 7.Be3 Bxf3 (or Qa5+ !?) black are clearly better !

3.d4 ?! Nc6 4.Cf3 Bg4 is very good for black  Cool


Black is clearly better in this variation?? What do you play after 7...Bxf3 8Bxf3 Nxd4 9Bg4 after 9..Nc2+ 11Qxc2 Qxg4 120-0 a6 white can play 13b4 or 13c5 in both cases with a strong attack. This was already discussed in the thread about Wisnewskis book.


realpolitik, what do you think of this (like I mentioned earlier in this thread):
9. Bg4 Nc2+ 10.Qxc2 Qxg4 11.O-O Qg6 12.Qa4 Qa6 13.Qxa6 bxa6 14.Bxa7 e6 15.Nc3 Nf6 16.Rfd1 1/2-1/2 (Yoos-Perez Garcia)
No black advantage, but at least a safe way to equality?
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #73 - 05/19/08 at 13:02:01
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gipc wrote on 05/18/08 at 17:55:41:
linksspringer wrote on 05/04/08 at 20:44:45:
Toppy, I agree that 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Be2 Nc6 5.d4 is a more accurate move order, precisely because it avoids the 4...e5 line. However, there is no avoiding it in the Nimzovich move order. And it is still interesting to players of Black in the Scandinavian. I am looking forward to your response to TalJechin.

Then there is: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.Be2 0-0-0 {or other move orders} 6.c4 Qf5 {6...Qh5 is risky, but white shouldn't castle into it. Need to check the supposed refutation. 6...Qa5+ could transpose after 7.Bd2 Qf5 8.Be3, but 8.0-0!? may be problematic.} 7.Be3 {7.0-0 Nf6 8.Be3 transposes.} 7...Nf6 {Wisnewski suggests 7...Bxf3 but it looks risky. Maybe for another post.}
And now the question is: which move creates problems for black, 8.0-0 or 8.Nbd2 or 8.Nc3 ?


I have analyzed this variation deeply and after 6.c4 Qf5 7.Be3 Bxf3 (or Qa5+ !?) black are clearly better !

3.d4 ?! Nc6 4.Cf3 Bg4 is very good for black  Cool


Black is clearly better in this variation?? What do you play after 7...Bxf3 8Bxf3 Nxd4 9Bg4 after 9..Nc2+ 11Qxc2 Qxg4 120-0 a6 white can play 13b4 or 13c5 in both cases with a strong attack. This was already discussed in the thread about Wisnewskis book.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #72 - 05/19/08 at 12:51:51
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gipc wrote on 05/18/08 at 19:17:49:
Well... after 10...Qe4  11.0-0 Qxd4 followed by e6 I don't see any compensation for white. There is no white attack on the queenside.

After 12.Qa4! e6 13.Nc3 it seems white does get an attack and black has to be very careful. Or do you have a line that leads to black advantage?

Quote:

10...c5 is less good 11.0-0 Rxd4 12.Qc2 Qe4 -/+ but ... 11.Qa4 ! cxd4 12.Qxa7 (12...d3 13.Nc3 looks dangerous for black but 12...Nf6 !? is unclear) Qe5 13.Na3 d3 14.Qa8+ Kc7 15.Nb5+  is drawish

I agree with you there, I don't think white has anything better than to force a draw. Which would at least already validate Bxf3 in a theoretical sense  Wink
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #71 - 05/18/08 at 19:17:49
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Well... after 10...Qe4  11.0-0 Qxd4 followed by e6 I don't see any compensation for white. There is no white attack on the queenside.

10...c5 is less good 11.0-0 Rxd4 12.Qc2 Qe4 -/+ but ... 11.Qa4 ! cxd4 12.Qxa7 (12...d3 13.Nc3 looks dangerous for black but 12...Nf6 !? is unclear) Qe5 13.Ca3 d3 14.Qa8+ Kc7 15.Nb5+  is drawish
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #70 - 05/18/08 at 18:27:05
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Hi gipc, nice to hear from you again!   Smiley
Interesting claim that black is clearly better. How in your opinion should black play after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Be2 Nc6 5.d4 O-O-O 6.c4 Qf5 7.Be3 Bxf3 8.Bxf3 Nxd4 9.Bxd4 Qe6 10.Be2 Qe4 (c5!?) 11.O-O ?
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #69 - 05/18/08 at 17:55:41
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linksspringer wrote on 05/04/08 at 20:44:45:
Toppy, I agree that 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Be2 Nc6 5.d4 is a more accurate move order, precisely because it avoids the 4...e5 line. However, there is no avoiding it in the Nimzovich move order. And it is still interesting to players of Black in the Scandinavian. I am looking forward to your response to TalJechin.

Then there is: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.Be2 0-0-0 {or other move orders} 6.c4 Qf5 {6...Qh5 is risky, but white shouldn't castle into it. Need to check the supposed refutation. 6...Qa5+ could transpose after 7.Bd2 Qf5 8.Be3, but 8.0-0!? may be problematic.} 7.Be3 {7.0-0 Nf6 8.Be3 transposes.} 7...Nf6 {Wisnewski suggests 7...Bxf3 but it looks risky. Maybe for another post.}
And now the question is: which move creates problems for black, 8.0-0 or 8.Nbd2 or 8.Nc3 ?


I have analyzed this variation deeply and after 6.c4 Qf5 7.Be3 Bxf3 (or Qa5+ !?) black are clearly better !

3.d4 ?! Nc6 4.Cf3 Bg4 is very good for black  Cool
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #68 - 05/16/08 at 23:44:14
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Ah, you made an edit before I could reply  Wink I was going to suggest 11.Nd2 Rxd4 myself. Sample line if white tries to blast the b-file open:
12.Qa4 Qb6! 13.Nf3 Rd8 14.O-O e6 15.a3 Kb8! 16.b4 Nf6 17.Rfb1 Qc7! 18.Rb2 g5!? 19.bxc5 Bxc5 20.Rab1 b6
I expect to get my hands on that Prie analysis pretty soon!
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #67 - 05/16/08 at 21:17:59
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When I looked at 10 ...c5 before, I thought (rightly or wrongly) that 11 Qa4 was OK for Black. I seem to remember I was more worried about 11 Nd2 cd 12 0-0 (12 ...d3?! 3 Bg4 or 13 Bf3). But here, 11 ...Rd4!? seems a serious alternative, that looks good for Black! All in all, I would like very much to see this [i]Informator[/i] analysis!
« Last Edit: 05/16/08 at 23:04:32 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #66 - 05/16/08 at 18:03:20
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Yes, 14.a3! looks like a very good answer to 13...Qb6. Good catch. So we are back to Prie's 13...Bd6 and his yet unknown (to me) analysis in Informant 100. 

Another complicated move is 10...c5!? (instead of Qe4) Critical is 11.Qa4 cxd4 12.Qxa7 and now d3, Qe5 or Nf6 with a complete mess.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #65 - 05/16/08 at 08:30:57
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H'mm -- interesting! Not sure I looked at the ...Qa6 idea just here. My first thought was 15 Qc2 and a nasty slow build-up but perhaps Black can play ...Bb4, x c3, then ...Nf6 and double quickly on the d-file to throw a spanner in White's works?

[b]Correction![/b] I remember now that after [b]13 ...Qb6[/b] I was thinking about [b]14 a3[/b] to stop ...Bb4. Not sure how Black stops the nasty slow build-up then.
« Last Edit: 05/16/08 at 17:41:24 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #64 - 05/15/08 at 23:55:39
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Michael Ayton wrote on 05/15/08 at 19:21:20:
Took a look. In the 9 Bg4 line, 11 ...Qg6 indeed looks fine to me. But alas! -- in the other line I think Black still remains in dubious shape.  Sad The "unanswered questions" I had related to 11 ...Rd4 and to a ...Qb6 idea, I seem to remember -- but I see why 11 ...Rd4 is no panacea and I must have been thinking of 13 ...Qb6 as you mentioned, which I reckon still leaves White with a nasty long-term attack.


No, not Rxd4 but Qxd4! The full line:

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nf3 Bg4 4. Be2 Nc6 5. d4 O-O-O 6. c4 Qf5 7. Be3 Bxf3 8. Bxf3 Nxd4 9. Bxd4 Qe6 10. Be2 Qe4 11. O-O Qxd4 12. Qa4 e6 13. Nc3 Qb6!? and after the Rybka-line 14. Rab1 Qa6 15. Qxa6 bxa6 black looks OK.

Notice the Qa6 idea in two different lines  Wink
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #63 - 05/15/08 at 19:21:20
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Took a look. In the 9 Bg4 line, 11 ...Qg6 indeed looks fine to me. But alas! -- in the other line I think Black still remains in dubious shape.  Sad The "unanswered questions" I had related to 11 ...Rd4 and to a ...Qb6 idea, I seem to remember -- but I see why 11 ...Rd4 is no panacea and I must have been thinking of 13 ...Qb6 as you mentioned, which I reckon still leaves White with a nasty long-term attack.

Meanwhile in the 7 ...Nf6 line I still suspect White's Kd2 idea leaves him better -- Black's King ain't exactly in clover either. Any other ideas to explore? I wondered about 9 ...Bb4 but dunno if it makes any sense ...
  
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