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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3 (Read 12741 times)
Kerangali
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #137 - 07/31/23 at 09:00:54
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Thanks MW.
Ris' short & sweet won't help much for this 10...Qe4 line: he only shows 11.Nc3? Qxd4 12.Qa4 Qd2+ 13.Kf1 Qxb2 where White doesn't even have a perpetual. 11.Qa4 Qxd4 0-0 looks more critical (as well as 10...c5 if Black wants a draw), surely this is developed in the full course?
As an OTB player, my general feeling regarding this 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nf3 Bg4 line is that:
a) the most brutal moves (Bg4, Nc6, 0-0-0, e5) work for Black, with many forcing lines and draws (e.g. this 10...c5 line). 
b) White can have some fun and initiative (e.g. in the 10...Qe4 11.Qa4 line), but mostly leading to drawing attacks. This is where Black needs to be careful imho.
c) White can still play 4.Nc3 to eschew these simplifications. 
« Last Edit: 07/31/23 at 18:06:11 by Kerangali »  
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MW
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #136 - 07/30/23 at 02:47:07
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Hi Kerangali,

If you are interested the position after 10... Qe4 is analyzed in some detail by Robert Ris in his just released Chessable course on the Scandinavian.
  
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Kerangali
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #135 - 06/19/23 at 21:59:05
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Hi,
a couple of thoughts (no corr analysis) on the first line, namely 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Be2 [4.Nc3 Qe6+ 5.Qe2 Qxe2 6.Bxe2 is decent for White] 4...Nc6 5.d4 0-0-0 6.c4 [6.Be3 is line 2] 6...Qf5 7.Be3 [7.0-0 also possible] 7...Bxf3 8.Bxf3 Nxd4 9.Bxd4 Qe6 10.Be2 (Cf. diagram):
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
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In general, I feel 10...Qe4 gives White some play, e.g.
10...Qe4 11.Qa4 Qxd4 12.0-0 e6 13.Nc3 a6 14.Rad1 Qe5 15.Rxd8 Kxd8 16.Bf3 Nf6! Lichess comp says 0.00 but this is really obscure. 
If Black wants more control, I prefer 10...c5. This looks more flexible than 10...Nf6, since after 10...c5 11.0-0 Black can play 11...cxd4 or 11...Nf6, whereas after 10...Nf6 11.0-0, Black must play 11...c5.
Now if Black wants a draw, simplest is perhaps:
10...c5 11.Qa4 cxd4 12.Qxa7 d3!? 13.Nc3 dxe2 14.Qa8+ Kd7 15.Qxb7+ Ke8 16.Nd5 Rc8 17.Nb6 Rd8 and neither side can avoid the repetition. Note that if Black plays 12...Nf6 instead of 12...d3, White can confuse matters with 13.0-0 Qxe2 (or 13...Qa6) or 13.Na3 d3 14.Qa8+ Kd7 15.Qa4+ Qc6 (15.Kd8 draw) 16.Qxc6 Qxc6 0-0-0.
If Black wants to win...I don't know  Sad. Any idea welcome!
  
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Patrick de Normandie
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #134 - 06/18/23 at 23:15:35
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I'd like to update this thread.

With black, on 1.e4 I usually play the Scandinavian. I am looking for the latest theoretical developments on the following lines:

Line 1: 
1.e4        d5
2.exd5     Qxd5
3.Nf3       Bg4
4.Be2      Nc6
5.d4        0-0-0
6.c4        Qf5
7.Be3      Bxf3
8.Bxf3     Nxd4
9.Bxd4    Qe6+
10.Be2

I understand the following answers have already been played: c5, Nf6, Qe4. Are they all equivalent if a. black is happy with a draw?   b. black wants to fight for a win? Are there other good moves for black on the 10th move?

Line 2: 
1.e4        d5
2.exd5     Qxd5
3.Nf3       Bg4
4.Be2      Nc6
5.d4        0-0-0
6.Be3       

I understand the following answers have already been played: e5, Nf6, Nh6. Are they all equivalent if a. black is happy with a draw?   b. black wants to fight for a win? Are there other good moves for black on the 6th move?

Thks
  
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Vass
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #133 - 06/29/11 at 07:51:34
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Hi Stefan!
I fully agree with your analysis.. Yes, white has some edge and black has no complete =, though the position is playable and the second player still has his chances.
As for my beloved Portuguese, let's make a new theme about it! Maybe other forum friends, addicted to that dangerous weapon, will join us too.. I'll start it with these games I have mentioned, but I don't know what was the problem analysis about it. I'm sorry I never saw this 'Kaissiber' analysis.. I'll have to find it somehow though..
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #132 - 06/28/11 at 14:16:14
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Vass wrote on 06/28/11 at 12:55:41:
TopNotch wrote on 05/05/09 at 16:22:44:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/29/09 at 04:05:08:
(At first posted elsewhere, but it may be of interest.) 

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Qxd5 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.Be2 Nc6 6.c4 Qf5 is a set-up that I studied a few months ago. 7.Be3 0-0-0 8.0-0 e5 9.d5 e4 10.Nd4 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 Bd6 12.Nc3 Bxe2 13.Nxe2! +=. Black seemed to be fine in this line, very often he gets a strong attack. But the text move is a clear improvement, mainly because it defends White's king! For example: 13...Qg5 14.h3 Rhe8 15.Rc1 a6 16.Qb3 Be5 17.Qe3 h6 18.Rc3 Kb8 19.Bxe5 Qxe5 20.Nd4 Nd7 21.b4 Nb6. White has the better prospects. I can't say whether the following is best, but it's a nice attempt: 22.b5!? Nxd5 23.cxd5 Rxd5 24.Nb3 axb5 25.Rfc1 Qd6 26.f3 f5 27.Rc5 Rd1+ 28.Rxd1 Qxd1+ 29.Kh2 Qd7 30.Qd4 Qxd4 31.Nxd4 e3 32.Rc1 f4 33.Nxb5 +/-, White has good winning chances. 

The line is potentially great for Black - but only if my analysis can be refuted.


Interestingly enough Dzinzicashvili and Perelstehn on his very recent DVD Roman's Lab 68 is recommending this line as good for Black!!, but they only consider the positions after 13.Qxe2.

Sometimes I really regret not being able to be a more active tournament player.  Wink

Tops Smiley


Looking for a "hole" in the above mentioned analysis...I can only propose you this exact move order for black:
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Nf3 Qxd5 4. d4 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Qf5 7. Be3 O-O-O 8. O-O e5 9. d5 e4 10. Nd4 Nxd4 11. Bxd4 Bxe2! (my mark!...and not Bd6 right now) 12. Qxe2 ...and now 12... Bd6
Here I state that I play Scandinavian (with 2... Nf6) for more than 30 years...and I find this exact move order completely safe for black. Countless games and analyses proved me that Scandinavian with 2... Nf6 is completely playable though very difficult to manage with...both as black and white. Two of my recent correspondent games at a high level proved me I can rely on this opening even in the sharpest lines in the Portuguese variation. Though I admit I suffered with black with no more chances than achieving two draws.


Hello Vass,
Could you please publish the two Portuguese games, perhaps in a thread on the Portuguese (there must be one or two in this forum)? I'd be very interested - there was an article by Michiel Wind in Kaissiber which seemed to make the system unattractive for Black (something like a +/- endgame, but with drawing chances for Black).  

Thank you very much for checking my analysis above. One of the points of Black's play was that after 11...Bd6 12.Nc3 Bxe2 13.Qxe2 he had the strong 13...Ng4 which gave him nice chances (objectively about equal, I think, but there are dangerous traps like 14.h3? Nh2 planning Nf3+!). If White played instead 12.Re1 (intending 12...Bxe2 13.Qxe2 Ng4? 14.h3), Black has the good move 12...h5, keeping the tension and the rook on h8. 

On the other side, 11...Bxe2 12.Qxe2 Bd6 13.Re1 is an improvement for White upon that last variation. It is a version of the 11...Bd6 line, but a less ambitious version. After 13.Te1 my old analysis went: 13...Rhe8 (not a move Black loves to play in this line) 14.Nc3 Be5 15.Bxe5 (15.Bxa7?! Bxh2+) 15...Qxe5 and White has the better position. It is still playable for Black, of course (even after 13.Nxe2! I only claimed a +=), but he hasn't really equalized.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #131 - 06/28/11 at 12:55:41
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TopNotch wrote on 05/05/09 at 16:22:44:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/29/09 at 04:05:08:
(At first posted elsewhere, but it may be of interest.) 

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Qxd5 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.Be2 Nc6 6.c4 Qf5 is a set-up that I studied a few months ago. 7.Be3 0-0-0 8.0-0 e5 9.d5 e4 10.Nd4 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 Bd6 12.Nc3 Bxe2 13.Nxe2! +=. Black seemed to be fine in this line, very often he gets a strong attack. But the text move is a clear improvement, mainly because it defends White's king! For example: 13...Qg5 14.h3 Rhe8 15.Rc1 a6 16.Qb3 Be5 17.Qe3 h6 18.Rc3 Kb8 19.Bxe5 Qxe5 20.Nd4 Nd7 21.b4 Nb6. White has the better prospects. I can't say whether the following is best, but it's a nice attempt: 22.b5!? Nxd5 23.cxd5 Rxd5 24.Nb3 axb5 25.Rfc1 Qd6 26.f3 f5 27.Rc5 Rd1+ 28.Rxd1 Qxd1+ 29.Kh2 Qd7 30.Qd4 Qxd4 31.Nxd4 e3 32.Rc1 f4 33.Nxb5 +/-, White has good winning chances. 

The line is potentially great for Black - but only if my analysis can be refuted.


Interestingly enough Dzinzicashvili and Perelstehn on his very recent DVD Roman's Lab 68 is recommending this line as good for Black!!, but they only consider the positions after 13.Qxe2.

Sometimes I really regret not being able to be a more active tournament player.  Wink

Tops Smiley


Looking for a "hole" in the above mentioned analysis...I can only propose you this exact move order for black:
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Nf3 Qxd5 4. d4 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Qf5 7. Be3 O-O-O 8. O-O e5 9. d5 e4 10. Nd4 Nxd4 11. Bxd4 Bxe2! (my mark!...and not Bd6 right now) 12. Qxe2 ...and now 12... Bd6
Here I state that I play Scandinavian (with 2... Nf6) for more than 30 years...and I find this exact move order completely safe for black. Countless games and analyses proved me that Scandinavian with 2... Nf6 is completely playable though very difficult to manage with...both as black and white. Two of my recent correspondent games at a high level proved me I can rely on this opening even in the sharpest lines in the Portuguese variation. Though I admit I suffered with black with no more chances than achieving two draws.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #130 - 06/19/11 at 01:04:00
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BirdBrain wrote on 06/18/11 at 16:06:41:
Why would it belong under that category, if this is a 1. e4 defense?  But thanks for letting me know you feel the same about Nc3, it seems more principled to not block the f-pawn here.


It's classified as B00 on ECO codes, but actually comes under 'Daring Defences to 1.d4' on ChessPublishing's classification. This position can also be reached via. 1.d4 Nc6 2.e4 d6.
  

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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #129 - 06/18/11 at 16:06:41
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Why would it belong under that category, if this is a 1. e4 defense?  But thanks for letting me know you feel the same about Nc3, it seems more principled to not block the f-pawn here.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #128 - 06/18/11 at 02:35:27
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BirdBrain wrote on 06/18/11 at 01:19:47:
I've got a simple question - after 1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 d6, does 3. Nc3 promise anything more than 3. Nf3?  It seems more ambitious to me.


This question belongs under 'Daring Defences to 1.d4'. And yes, 3.Nc3 is probably better.
  

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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #127 - 06/18/11 at 01:19:47
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I've got a simple question - after 1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 d6, does 3. Nc3 promise anything more than 3. Nf3?  It seems more ambitious to me.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #126 - 06/17/11 at 16:43:26
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No yours last developpement is very interesting but 2008 and 2009 post was well known since 1997
« Last Edit: 06/18/11 at 09:38:38 by Djy »  

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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #125 - 06/17/11 at 12:35:49
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Djy wrote on 06/17/11 at 12:28:13:
Wahls Know all that since before 1997 no?
On 6.c4 Qf5 7.0-0! Nd4! 8.Nd4 Be2 9.Qe2 Rd4 10.Be3 Rd8(but Probably Rd7!? is even better)10.Ba7(or 11.Nc3....) Nf6 11.Nc3 e6 12.Rad1 Bb4 13.Bd4.... with = play

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. 

We're now discussing the line 6...Qh5 7 Be3 Nh6.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #124 - 06/17/11 at 12:28:13
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Wahls Know all that since before 1997 no?
On 6.c4 Qf5 7.0-0! Nd4! 8.Nd4 Be2 9.Qe2 Rd4 10.Be3 Rd8(but Probably Rd7!? is even better)10.Ba7(or 11.Nc3....) Nf6 11.Nc3 e6 12.Rad1 Bb4 13.Bd4.... with = play
  

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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Nf3
Reply #123 - 06/10/11 at 23:14:56
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Michael Ayton wrote on 06/10/11 at 12:49:41:
I was looking at 8 ...e6 9 h3 Nf5 10 Qa4 Ne3 11 fe Qh6, but also 8 ...Nf5 (maybe better?!) 9 d5 (9 Qa4!? Kb8!?) Ne3 10 fe Ne5 11 Ne5 Be2 12 Qe2 Qe5 13 Nf3 Qh5 (13 ...Qf6!?) and at least Black has snaffled White's dangerous 'lightfielder'.

After 8...Nf5 I analysed the same line. Maybe White is a little better at the end? But it looks playable.

After 8...e6 there is also 9.Qa4 Nf5 10.0-0-0 Nxe3 11.fxe3 Qh6 12.d5 Nb8 13.h3 (13.Qxa7!? exd5 doesn't seem to give White anything) Bxf3 14.Bxf3 Bc5 (or 14...Na6!? but not 14...Qxe3? 15.Rhe1 Qb6 16.dxe6 fxe6 17.Rxe6 Qxe6? 18.Bg4)
  
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