Gambit wrote on 10/12/09 at 05:23:33:


And what if White plays 4.Nf3? 4...Bg4 5.Bb5 Qe7 6.0-0 isn't much fun for Black, and neither is 4...Qe7 5.ed6 (5.Nc3 Ne5 6.Nd5 is even better) 5...Qe4 6.Qe2 Qe2 7.Be2 Bd6 8.Nc3 a6 9.Be3. Not that the 3...d6 gambit is sound, but if White can obtain a slight and pleasant advantage by simply declining the gambit then it doesn't inspire any confidence in the idea.

I remember being rather excited a few years ago to find Keene and Jacobs' "A Complete Defence for Black", in which 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5 forms part of the recommended repertoire. (Absurdly, they also give some games with Nimzowitsch's 2...d5 -- including, oddly enough, no fewer than four of Keene's own -- even though they don't recommend it because of 3.Nc3!) 

But disillusionment set in when I realised that this line allows White to transpose into the Scotch with 3.Nf3. If I wanted to defend the Scotch, I'd be playing 1...e5 in the first place. I realise of course that stronger players would rather defend the Scotch than the Lopez; but I'm not one of those. I hate defending the Scotch. 

However, I've been thinking about this again. It is often said here, and no doubt rightly, that patzers like me ought to be playing 1...e5. The snag about that, as others have pointed out, is that you need to learn a lot of theory before you can confidently play 1...e5 in a serious game. 

I wonder whether one solution to this would be to use 1...Nc6 as a way of dipping one's toe into the shark-infested 1...e5 water. One could take it in three stages:

A. Learn 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5 (including the Scotch) but answer 2.Nf3 with 2...d6.

B. Learn defences to the Lopez, Giuoco Piano etc, and phase out 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 in favour of 2...e5.

C. Learn defences to the King's Gambit, Centre Game etc, and phase out 1...Nc6 in favour of 1...e5.

Does that seem a reasonable plan? Of course, one might find that one does as well with the 1...Nc6 lines as Miles did -- which would mean a lot more time to study tactics and endgames!

In Campora-Miles after the moves 4... f5!? 5.f3 Nf6 6.Nc3 d6 7.Qd2 g6 8.0-0-0 Bg7 9.h3 I am not sure if closing the kingside with 9... f4 was the best decision. Interestingly the same position has been reached via a completely different moveorder (1.e4 g6) in the game Sahl-Kristiansen, Den-ch 1995 where Black just played 9... 0-0 ignoring whites g4-idea and trying to get counterplay with Bd7, Qb8 and b5 which seemed to work well.

I have looked into other setups for White but couldn´t find anything really convincing. Perhaps trying to reach an "ideal" King´s Indian for White with 4... f5 5.f3 Nf6 6.Nd2 d6 7.c4 g6 8.Ne2 Bg7 9.Nc3 0-0 10.Be2 is an idea. But of course Black doesn´t have to follow that path ...

@ Michael

I believe I have seen the Be3 & Nd2 idea in some book stating black has difficulties with his Bf8. But perhaps my memory failed me here since your excellent suggestion of Qe7 & Bc5 solves this problem.

What if White delays c4 and continues with 3.d5 Nce7 4.Be3 Ng6 5.Nd2 ? After 5... Nf6  6.f3 Bb4 7.a3 Bxd2+ (Ba5 7.c4) 8.Qxd2 seems forced. Or if 6... c6 6.c4 Bb4 again 7.a3. Practical experience here is very limited.

Perhaps I overestimate the bishop pair here but I would like to make such a setup work for White because it´s simple and easy to remember for the rare occasion I meet a player who uses the Nimzovich. So please forgive my stubbornness here.  

[quote author=nmga link=1209888813/15#21 date=1246357035]TN, in another thread, mentions three White possibilities:

(1) 3 d5 Nce7 4 c4.  This is what, as a Nimzo player, I like to see most! After 4 ...Ng6 then ...Nf6 we're probably in less critical Tango territory and I think Black is fine. [b]I agree that Black should be okay here; ECO claims a slight edge for White but I find this hard to believe. Perhaps instead of 5.Nc3/5.Be3, White should prefer 5.g3!? Bc5 6.h4! when at least White has some dynamic potential in his position with h5 on the cards.[/b]

(2) 3 d5 Nce7 4 Nf3 Ng6 5 h4 h5 6 Bg5. This is surely critical! There aren't too many practical examples, but to set discussion rolling what on 6 ...Nf6 (6 ...Be7!?) 7 Nc3 Bb4? Now Mortensen-Hoi went 8 Qd3 a6! and Simons-Miles 8 Nd2 c6! but I'm sure there are other White tries. [b]Firstly, the immediate 6...Be7 is dubious because of 7.d6! cd6 8.Nc3 Nf6 9.Bf6 Bf6 10.Qd6 when White has a significant advantage. Secondly, 7.Bd3!? (far less common than 7.Nc3) may well be more precise, to prevent Black from playing ...Bb4 without losing a tempo. Play continues 7...Bc5 8.0-0 0-0 (not forced but Black will have to do this someday) and now White is slightly better after 9.c4 d6 10.Nc3. Black does not have his usual counterplay on the kingside, and it is difficult for him to attack on the queenside because of White's space advantage in this sector.[/b]

(3) 3 de Ne5 4 Nf3. Here I prefer 4 ...Bb4 -- see Reply 2 above. Last time I looked I thought Black was OK here but ... let discussion roll! [b]After 6...Bc5, I think White should play 7.Nd2!?: for example, Plaskett-Sammour Hasbun, Mermaid Beach 1998, continued Qf6 8. Nc4 d6 9. b4 Bb6 10. a4 c5 11. Bf4 Bg4 12. Nxd6+ Qxd6 13. Bb5+, and Black resigned. Black should prefer 8...Qf3 9.gf3 d6, although White an advatnage with 10.Be3 or the intermezzo 10.Rg1. 10.b4!? isn't bad either.



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I have tried the Tango in a few games in the last 2 years. In my experience in this structure Black wants to place the bishop on c5 or exchange it on c3 giving White doubled pawns.

Via the moveorder 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.e4 Ng6 6.Bd3 allows 6... Bc5! and 6.Be3 allows 6... Bb4! 7.f3 Bxc3+.

After 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5 3.d5 Ne7 4.c4 Ng6 5.Be3 the square c5 ist covered an after 5... Bb4+ 6.Nd2 Black probably has to give up the bishop-pair without any compensating factor though one may argue that at least he has exchanged his bad bishop in a closed position. Still I believe the bishop-pair offers White good longterm chances to provide an edge.

In (1) after 4.c4 Ng6 white doesn´t have to transpose to the Tango with Nc3. An independant idea is 5.Be3!? intending 5... Bb4+ 6.Nd2! which may be a little better for white. 

4.c4 Nf6 5.Bd3 Ng6 6.Be3 or 6.Ne2 is also independent from a normal Tango.