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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What to Play Against the Closed Games? (Read 24852 times)
trandism
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Re: What to Play Against the Closed Games?
Reply #67 - 05/31/08 at 11:59:52
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@yzfool

Regarding the black side of the english.. 

I've switched from the 4 Knights approach + Bb4 + Nimzo Ideas to a close relative of this, somewhat more aggresive..

I now play 1.c4 e5, 2.nc3 nc6, 3.g3/Nf3 f5 which leads to variations where black has nimzo ideas (Bxc3,d6) but also sicilian grand-prix attack colour reversed ideas, again playing Bb4 and exchanging on c3 at the correct moment and also Qe8,Qh5,f4,Bh3 stuff if white allows it..

I wholeheartedly recommend IM Bill Paschall's Chesslecture.com material titled "A complete system against the english for Black" which is based on 3...f5

  
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Re: What to Play Against the Closed Games?
Reply #66 - 05/30/08 at 23:20:14
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yzfool wrote on 05/26/08 at 05:29:18:
 
The problem with the Tartakower is reaching it. I could deal with the 5.Bf4 issues , but I don't like dealing with the Colle/London/Torre folks when I have a pawn on e6.


I don't follow this.  Why do you have a pawn on e6?  1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6.  Now, 3.e3 Bf5, 3.Bg5 Ne4, and 3.Bf4 c5 are all fine for Black.
  
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yzfool
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Re: What to Play Against the Closed Games?
Reply #65 - 05/30/08 at 01:15:51
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Thanks everybody, this really expedited my ten year process of elimination.  I have explored all your suggestions and taken your criticisms into account and have concluded that I will go with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 heading for the NID or QID (most of you) or 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 (MNb). 1...e5 against 1.c4 (again, most of you) and 1...e6 against 1.Nf3 (by inference).
  
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yzfool
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Re: What to Play Against the Closed Games?
Reply #64 - 05/26/08 at 05:29:18
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MNb wrote on 05/26/08 at 02:08:58:
yzfool wrote on 05/26/08 at 01:37:57:
Where are the "three square strategies" for Black?

The Iljin-Zjenevsky of course. Black plays e6, f5, Nf6, Be7, 0-0 and d6 and his play revolves around the squares d5, e5 and e4. One additional problem is the potential weakness of square e6 (but isn't there sometimes a problem around square d6 in the French either?)
Only slightly more sophisticated is the Leningrad f5, Nf6, g6, Bg7, 0-0, d6 and now Qe8.

A few pages before you wrote you considered 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5, but had a problem with 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3. You also wrote you liked the Tartakower, but did not want to face the QGE with Nge2. Then why not an unusual combination?
1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4+ 5.Nbd2 (imo 5.Bd2 Bxd2+ and 6...Qe7 is an improved I-Z; 5.Nc3 Bxc3+ and White has problems to maintain equality) 0-0 6.Nf3 b6 idea 7.Ne5 Ne4.
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 d5 3.c4 e6 4.Nc3 Be7
a) 5.Bf4 might be the biggest problem;
b) 5.cxd5 exd5 is no big deal because of 2.Nf3. Black can play ...Bf5;
c) 5.Bg5 0-0 6.e3 h6 7.Bh4 b6 and you have your Tartakower.


The I-Z Dutch was an old favorite of mine.  I only gave it up because I stopped playing the French, so I couldn't use the 1..e6 move order. Let alone 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 or 2.Bg5, 1.Nf3 f5 allowed 2.d3! and 1.Nf3 e6 but then 2.c4! delaying d4 was problematic. So I think the IZ is out.

The problem with the Tartakower is reaching it. I could deal with the 5.Bf4 issues , but I don't like dealing with the Colle/London/Torre folks when I have a pawn on e6. I have the same problem in the 1...e6, 2...Nf6 move order too, but at least in this move order I have  flexibility in constructing my center as I can delay d7-d5 and play c7-c6 and fianchetto my QB.
  
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Re: What to Play Against the Closed Games?
Reply #63 - 05/26/08 at 02:31:04
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Stigma wrote on 05/21/08 at 11:19:39:
trandism wrote on 05/21/08 at 09:43:14:

I agree that we should try playing some "good openings" ourselves, why not? What I'm trying to say here is that what separates us from the next level, whatever that level is, is not the opening preparation.. That's my opinion of course.. I get something like 8 += out of 10 in my tourney games regardless of the colours.. With higher-rated players as well and not always in my favourite variations, but in unknown territory too.. Middlegame understanding and most of all calculation abilities is what separates experts from the elite.

Anyway, to sum up, I don't disagree with you.. LOL


I'm glad we don't disagree all that much.  Smiley

One thought on the value of opening preparation for amateurs:
I know the general advice of countless books and chess teachers is not to focus much on opening preparation until one reaches, say, expert level on mostly tactics, middlegames and endgames. But in this information age openings tend to extend so far into the middlegame that in reality, opening preparation is as much about understanding the middlegame plans for both sides as memorising the first 15 moves. I know several players who (against popular advice) started playing critical main line openings very early, and in retrospect I would say they have benefited.

Of course, opening study must not come instead of other important areas (tactics, calculation, endgame theory etc.). Some good sources for a "global" way to study openings, with the whole game in mind:

- Playing to Win with "Your" Defence by Randy Bauer
http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_instructive_gms/040829_plyng_wn_yr_dfnc.html
- Excelling at Chess by Jacob Aagaard
- Französisch Winawer Band 1: 7.Dg4 0-0 by Kindermann and Dirr
- Pirc Alert! by Alburt and Chernin
- The Benkö Gambit by Jan Pinski
- Mastering the Endgame 1-2 by Shereshevsky and Slutsky

Btw. I look forward to John Cox' book on the Berlin; if he has put as much work into introductions and strategic explanations as it appears from his postings here, it is sure to become a classic in this genre.

To conclude: In my experience, opening preparation (both concrete moves and particularly understanding of the specific types of middlegames and endgames that arise) is one of many factors that separate players on different levels.


A insightful exchange.  I agree that opening preparation is of limited value until 2100+ at the earliest. That instead, you need middle game understanding.  The French is a middlegame opening. The observation that the French may be unique in this regard and that the French isn't a causal defense among GMs, was very interesting. If true, it hints that what I am looking for in other openings may be a chimera. Earlier in this thread, there was a suggestion that what I am aiming for would stifle my chess understanding, even if achieved.  These criticism is only valid if you assume I am looking to play the same way with White. The difficulty I am having against the Closed Games should assure you that I will be playing 1.d4 main lines when I will giving lessons rather than taking them.  You two have given me food for thought; lessons I appreciate.

  
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Re: What to Play Against the Closed Games?
Reply #62 - 05/26/08 at 02:08:58
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yzfool wrote on 05/26/08 at 01:37:57:
 Where are the "three square strategies" for Black?

The Iljin-Zjenevsky of course. Black plays e6, f5, Nf6, Be7, 0-0 and d6 and his play revolves around the squares d5, e5 and e4. One additional problem is the potential weakness of square e6 (but isn't there sometimes a problem around square d6 in the French either?)
Only slightly more sophisticated is the Leningrad f5, Nf6, g6, Bg7, 0-0, d6 and now Qe8.

A few pages before you wrote you considered 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5, but had a problem with 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3. You also wrote you liked the Tartakower, but did not want to face the QGE with Nge2. Then why not an unusual combination?
1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4+ 5.Nbd2 (imo 5.Bd2 Bxd2+ and 6...Qe7 is an improved I-Z; 5.Nc3 Bxc3+ and White has problems to maintain equality) 0-0 6.Nf3 b6 idea 7.Ne5 Ne4.
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 d5 3.c4 e6 4.Nc3 Be7
a) 5.Bf4 might be the biggest problem;
b) 5.cxd5 exd5 is no big deal because of 2.Nf3. Black can play ...Bf5;
c) 5.Bg5 0-0 6.e3 h6 7.Bh4 b6 and you have your Tartakower.
  

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yzfool
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Re: What to Play Against the Closed Games?
Reply #61 - 05/26/08 at 02:08:29
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[/quote]

If I were in this situation, I guess I would do some research on the repertoires of strong, consistent French "heroes", past and present:
e.g. 
The Armenians (Vaganian, Lputian, Akobian (sic) ...)
The Germans (Uhlmann, Knaak, Luther, Kindermann...)
The Russians (?) Ulibin, Eingorn, Gleizerov, Moskalenko.

I'm sure forum readers can supply other names.

By the way, I read somewhere that Armenian juniors are coached to play the Tarrasch QGD for a while and then move on (look for instance at the repertoire of Varuzhan Akobian). [/quote]

This was suggested before. French players apparently have the same issue as me since there is no consistency to their closed games as individuals.  However, I will look to see if there is consistency within the Armenian, German, and Russian "schools".  However, when I say Tarrasch my echo says Rubinstein. I'll look to see if the Armenian where able to become masters on a diet of IQPs against that formation.  Thanks for this advice, I am firing up the database now.
  
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Re: What to Play Against the Closed Games?
Reply #60 - 05/26/08 at 02:01:00
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Quote:
For the typical french player, 
I'd suggest Nimzo-cyronix6-Catalan Combination and against the english  ... e5 with a later ... Bb4.
Or simply the QGD against both 1.d4 and 1.c4.



This recommendation is becoming the consensus. See  trandism's post above.  I would really like to play 1...e6, 1...d5, but before the the Tartakower, the gods have placed the Exhange QGD and Slav Mashall Gambit.  I haven't completely ruled out the QGD, because I an trying to determine if Black gets winning chances after 3...Be7 4.cxd5 or 4.Bf4.
  
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Re: What to Play Against the Closed Games?
Reply #59 - 05/26/08 at 01:37:57
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Chevalier wrote on 05/25/08 at 05:28:04:
Another factor that could separate players of different levels is experience, although there are many different types of experience (many more blitz games; more classical games; more correspondence games, etc). Personally I think the understanding and knowledge of openings is a more important factor, especially since this is precisely what experience in an opening variation improves.


I understand most openings.  In fact I can tell you what is "wrong" with most defenses to 1.d4.  So much so that I have decided to accept the deficiencies of any reply to 1.d4 and seek a French-like reply about which  I could become just as sentimental.  The French features a strategy that revolves around no more than three squares, and usually only two so you always have an idea of where the pieces should go.  I can play the French without studying theory and win.  I can then look up the opening to find where I could have improved.  That is a tremendous advantage, but there appears to be no counterpart in the Closed Games.  Where are the "three square strategies" for Black?
  
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Re: What to Play Against the Closed Games?
Reply #58 - 05/26/08 at 01:26:38
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Thanks for the warning about the London System and the KID.  I almost feel guilty that people like you are doing the work for me, but I have lost all objectivity on the matter, and needed some focus.  I'll  look at that system against the KID, I remember playing it myself when I was trying to avoid tactical lines years ago.

I was going to play the Bogo or QID, not both. The Nimzo was he parent defense in both cases, beginning with 1...e6 in all cases.  I feared, like you suggested that, the 1..e6, 2...Nf6 move order is sub optimal against the QP games.  I am certain that White gets  a small advantage against the Torre and that White is easier to play in the Colle-Zukertort.  But both of these QP games give Black good counterplay, good enough to win.

And your reasoning (and a little verification) have eliminated the Bog Indian and the KID from my list.  Thanks.
  
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Re: What to Play Against the Closed Games?
Reply #57 - 05/25/08 at 05:28:04
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Another factor that could separate players of different levels is experience, although there are many different types of experience (many more blitz games; more classical games; more correspondence games, etc). Personally I think the understanding and knowledge of openings is a more important factor, especially since this is precisely what experience in an opening variation improves.
  

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Re: What to Play Against the Closed Games?
Reply #56 - 05/21/08 at 11:19:39
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trandism wrote on 05/21/08 at 09:43:14:

I agree that we should try playing some "good openings" ourselves, why not? What I'm trying to say here is that what separates us from the next level, whatever that level is, is not the opening preparation.. That's my opinion of course.. I get something like 8 += out of 10 in my tourney games regardless of the colours.. With higher-rated players as well and not always in my favourite variations, but in unknown territory too.. Middlegame understanding and most of all calculation abilities is what separates experts from the elite.

Anyway, to sum up, I don't disagree with you.. LOL


I'm glad we don't disagree all that much.  Smiley

One thought on the value of opening preparation for amateurs:
I know the general advice of countless books and chess teachers is not to focus much on opening preparation until one reaches, say, expert level on mostly tactics, middlegames and endgames. But in this information age openings tend to extend so far into the middlegame that in reality, opening preparation is as much about understanding the middlegame plans for both sides as memorising the first 15 moves. I know several players who (against popular advice) started playing critical main line openings very early, and in retrospect I would say they have benefited.

Of course, opening study must not come instead of other important areas (tactics, calculation, endgame theory etc.). Some good sources for a "global" way to study openings, with the whole game in mind:

- Playing to Win with "Your" Defence by Randy Bauer
http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_instructive_gms/040829_plyng_wn_yr_dfnc.html
- Excelling at Chess by Jacob Aagaard
- Französisch Winawer Band 1: 7.Dg4 0-0 by Kindermann and Dirr
- Pirc Alert! by Alburt and Chernin
- The Benkö Gambit by Jan Pinski
- Mastering the Endgame 1-2 by Shereshevsky and Slutsky

Btw. I look forward to John Cox' book on the Berlin; if he has put as much work into introductions and strategic explanations as it appears from his postings here, it is sure to become a classic in this genre.

To conclude: In my experience, opening preparation (both concrete moves and particularly understanding of the specific types of middlegames and endgames that arise) is one of many factors that separate players on different levels.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: What to Play Against the Closed Games?
Reply #55 - 05/21/08 at 10:23:34
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trandism wrote on 05/19/08 at 18:35:48:
With all respect to Paddy, I strongly disagree with his recommendation of researching repertoires of top players playing the french defence..

Reason being that Vaganian and Akobian and all other "French" GMs have a much broader knowledge and ability to handle a middlegame situation than a club player at expert level.. 

If we are talking about players <2400 here, I find the idea of copying repertoires from the elite and sub-elite a really bad idea..


Welll, there are a couple of things that I think are relevant.

First, you might feel that GMs are a breed apart, especially when you get hammered by them in an Open, but it is worth remembering that every GM was once a weak player trying to improve.

Second, the French defence has many unusual features and is something of an acquired taste. Thus GM French defence players tend to be specialists. (I don't know of many GMs who play the French only as an occasional weapon.) Also they tend to have played it a long time as their main or even exclusive defence to 1 e4, often since they were juniors. So I suggest it can be quite instructive as well as interesting to look at their games in a good database and see how their repertoires, tastes and understanding have evolved.

For example, against 1 d4, you can look to see if they seek closed positions, roughly (and I mean roughly) similar to the French, such as the Stonewall Dutch (Botvinnik, Gleizerov, Ulibin, Moskalenko...) or perhaps the King's Indian (Uhlmann).

Or do they seek a complete contrast from the French, such as the Tarrasch QGD (many of the Armenians), or perhaps something in between these extremes ( e.g. Vaganian and Lputian now generally play the QGD).

Finally, until a player develops his own chess style and "personality", it can be very useful to have a chess role model, whose openings you imitate and study. Many coaches have recommended this, and I don't think they are wrong. Having a role model can motivate you to study and at the same time reduces the amount that you have to study. It can also help prevent you from flitting from one unsatisfactory opening to another, as many on this forum seem to have done (including me  Wink ).

All the above refers to players who are beyond the beginner stage, who have ideally gone through a stage of playing lots of open games and gambits to develop their tactical skills, and who are now trying to develop a "serious" repertoire, one in which it is worth investing time, effort and money.


  
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Re: What to Play Against the Closed Games?
Reply #54 - 05/21/08 at 09:43:14
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Yes you are correct stigma.. 

I meant to say that I strongly disagree with copying repertoires, not researching them of course! 

Of course it helps to know what those players play and of course it is a hint of what a french player would like against d4..

Kramnik may be an authority on chess in general but I still think that he can't get in the shoes of a common player.. 

And by the way, If you ask Kramnik what a Petroff player should play against d4, he may answer something totally different than what he himself plays.. 

I agree that we should try playing some "good openings" ourselves, why not? What I'm trying to say here is that what separates us from the next level, whatever that level is, is not the opening preparation.. That's my opinion of course.. I get something like 8 += out of 10 in my tourney games regardless of the colours.. With higher-rated players as well and not always in my favourite variations, but in unknown territory too.. Middlegame understanding and most of all calculation abilities is what separates experts from the elite.

Anyway, to sum up, I don't disagree with you.. LOL
  
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Re: What to Play Against the Closed Games?
Reply #53 - 05/21/08 at 07:17:41
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trandism wrote on 05/20/08 at 14:37:04:
OK.. Let'see now.. Suppose that I am a player that has studied and liked the Petroff and came to the point of wondering what to study for my black repertoire against d4,c4 and Nf3.. 

Choice #1: Ask in this forum
Choice #2: See what Kramnik plays against d4 and study that..

All I said was that I would go for #1 and not #2..



I see no reason why you can't do both #1 and #2. I don't think anyone on this forum is a bigger opening authority than Kramnik.

Actually you said you "strongly disagreed" that researching the repertoires of top players was a good idea for expert-level players. I don't see the advantage of limiting oneself this way (and I have done so myself, for too many years). We must remember that our opponents usually don't have the understanding and knowledge of a GM either, so why not try some really good openings?
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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