@ Pantu

After 6.e4 fxe4 7.f3 e5 can be played (I prefer 7..Qa5, but that's a matter of taste). 
But after 8.dxe6 the best move is 8..Nc6! with a good game for black

fluffy wrote on 06/22/08 at 22:59:51:

Still I wonder if Black can use this Bxc3+ variation to limit White's options. Can White after 1.d4 g6 2.c4 (I would play 2.e4 btw, but I am originally a 1.e4 player) Bg7 3.e4 still reach the Fianchetto Variation of the KID (4.g3)? Can Black try to reach the Modern Benoni or even the Volga Gambit after 3.Nf3 c5 ?

I'd say Black's (playable, non-KID) options after 3. e4 number about a half-dozen, but there seems to be a consensus that they all give White a better chance of advantage than he gets in the KID.

I lost a rather horrible game as white in this line a few years ago, but have never faced it since.

1 d4 g6 2 c4 Bg7 3 Nc3 c5!? 4 d5 Bxc3+ 5 bxc3 f5 and now:

6 e4 is not something I'd ever looked at but does seem to make sense.  Looking at the database I'd guess 6...fxe4 7 f3 e5!? 8 dxe6 d6!? isn't quite so clearcut?

I personally have not worried about this line since the defeat since I think that 6 h4!? is quite strong e.g.

6 h4!? Nf6 7 h5! Rg8 (7...Nxh5 8 e4 Qa5 9 exf5 Qxc3+ 10 Bd2 Qe5 11 Be2 0-0 12 fxg6 'would be a slaughter' according to Speelman 8 hxg6 hxg6 and now Speelman suggests that 9 Qa4! is best, presumably aiming to hinder black's development, although 9...Qb6 intending 10...Ne4 doesn't seem to have anything immediately against it (black is ahead in development after all...!)

But even more to the point I that I would simply play 3 e4 here.

fluffy wrote on 06/21/08 at 19:37:45:


Fair enough. You being such a strong player and having plenty of experience in the line, I can only bow to your authority.  But I wish you would say how Black plays against 5.e4 fxe4 6.f3 Nf6 (it seems Black should play this) 7.Qc2 or 7.fxe4 d6 7.Bd3.  I fullly agree that Black has his share of the center; and that the light-square bishop is a problem piece for the time being; but personally, I would be worried about my brittle kingside and the possibility of invasion along the f-file.  That CC game I won, as I recall, did I seize the f-file.  I'll see if I can dig it up; it was played on postcards, but I may have them around here.

statistically speaking after the move Bxc3+ yes black has a 55% win ratio. However after the move ...f5 white has a 75% win ratio with Qc2 a 66% win ratio with e4 a 55% win ratio with Nh3 and a 50% win ratio with f3... black has a 90% win ratio with any other move. So yes... I would never play this as black and as white even with no prep i'd laugh. Black has given up the bishop pair, surrendered the center, and created tons of weak squares! What is it white is supposed to fear?

IMJohnCox wrote on 06/20/08 at 11:36:40:


Yes, I do mean 6.e4.  I was thrown off by misnumbering in the original post.

drkodos wrote on 06/20/08 at 20:18:06:


In my database, the Beefeater scores better for black than the BGD does for white! But I get what you are saying- and you make a number of interesting points.

It's quite possible that the information vaccum is the reason for its success (my opinion thats its just good notwithstanding). However, there is no real reason to believe the information situation will change. It's not really a new opening. I knew about it at least 18 years ago. It's poorly covered in almost all books. I believe Yermolinsky in his 'Road to Chess Improvement' dismisses it with "wait until someone tries it against Kasparov..." ok... I guess- but thats not too helpful!

And as you state, there are no pawn breaks for white- and hence, to a degree- no plans. To me it seems that whites best bet is to try to turn it into a tactical brawl right away (such as with the line suggested by Markovich above). But:

1. that is not everyone's forte
2. when you are playing into someone's pet line- and you dont know the theory, human nature is too not play the most critical/tactical lines...

But then again, I'd be very reluctant to make it a major part of my repertoire too...

John