ChessPub Forum - C02: Another lost tempo in the Advance

JonathanB Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 449 Location: London Joined: 11/17/07 Gender:	Re: Another lost tempo in the Advance Reply #6 - 09/03/08 at 17:37:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	Woops - this took me a month to get back to not just a day! I've had a bit of a think about this line and I've come to wonder whether 12. ... Rc8 hitting the queen might actually lose a tempo rather than gain one (as appears to be the case). Anyhoo, I'm not going to volunteer to get this position again to find out because I'm going to vary earlier if I ever have this set-up to face in the future. After making the original post I was very interested to read Moskolenko suggest 6. ... Nh6 instead of playing into the Milner-Barry gambit in the Flexible French. His analysis then proceeds with Black playing ...Nh6-f5 and ending up a position that could have arisen in this tempo loss line had Black played 9. ... Nh6-f5 instead of 9. ... Nb4 (as I did in my game). Of course White has an extra tempo in Moskolenko's line because he's played B to d3 in one move not two. Moskolenko has White using the extra move to castle. I guess I'm saying I'm saying I intend to play Moskalenko's set-up and make full use of the free tempo White has given up next time around.

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JonathanB Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 449 Location: London Joined: 11/17/07 Gender:	Re: Another lost tempo in the Advance Reply #5 - 07/31/08 at 21:25:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote author=Willempie] The "normal" tempo-loss in the French was Bf1-d3-e2 (many games in Mein System with this as apparently they rather lost a tempo then sac the d4 pawn in those days) [/quote] Thanks for the feedback guys - I'll reply properly tomorrow. You know it's funny but I was just flicking through My System last night and was thinking what a lucky bugger Tarrasch was that so many people seemed to be prepared to give him a tempo for free in the opening.

	www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Another lost tempo in the Advance Reply #4 - 07/31/08 at 10:52:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	OldGrizzly wrote on 07/31/08 at 10:43:34: That's completely another variation! True but it is the first game with this. The "normal" tempo-loss in the French was Bf1-d3-e2 (many games in Mein System with this as apparently they rather lost a tempo then sac the d4 pawn in those days)

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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OldGrizzly Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 61 Joined: 07/16/08	Re: Another lost tempo in the Advance Reply #3 - 07/31/08 at 10:43:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	That's completely another variation!


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Another lost tempo in the Advance Reply #2 - 07/31/08 at 09:23:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	JonathanB wrote on 07/31/08 at 08:46:06: PS: A final question... I'm sure my opponent told me after the game this was an idea of Timman's. Well I may have remembered that incorrectly because Watson says Soltis gives 7. Bd3 a "!" and attributes the idea to Fishbein. Does anybody know who deserves the credit for this strange tempo losing move. There you go. Not an advance but this is the game. First moving Bf1-e2-d3 and later making it even more weird with 0-0-Kf1-Ke2. Donner in "The King" has some fun comments on the game in general. [Event "Nice"] [Date "1974.??.??"] [Result "0-1"] [White "Jan Timman"] [Black "Viktor Korchnoi"] 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. a4 Qa5 8. Qd2 Nbc6 9. Nf3 Bd7 10. Be2 Rc8 11. Bd3 cxd4 12. cxd4 Qxd2+ 13. Bxd2 b6 14. Ra3 O-O 15. O-O Rc7 16. Rb1 h6 17. Kf1 Nf5 18. Bc3 Rfc8 19. Ke2 f6 20. g4 Nfe7 21. exf6 gxf6 22. h4 Be8 23. g5 Bh5 24. gxf6 Nf5 25. Bxf5 exf5 26. Ke3 Kf7 27. Rb5 Rd7 28. a5 Re8+ 29. Ne5+ Nxe5 30. dxe5 d4+ 31. Bxd4 f4+ 32. Kxf4 Rxd4+ 33. Ke3 Rxh4 34. Rd3 a6 35. Rd7+ Kf8 36. Rbd5 Bf7 37. f4 Bxd5 38. Rxd5 bxa5 39. Rxa5 Kf7 40. Rxa6 Kg6 41. Ke4 Rc8 0-1

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Phil Adams Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 163 Joined: 04/04/08	Re: Another lost tempo in the Advance Reply #1 - 07/31/08 at 09:20:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	I first encountered this idea when it was played against me by a strong corres. player a few years ago. I followed a Watson line (I think), and managed to gain equal chances in a messy game that was eventually drawn. [Event "BCCA ch"] [Site "?"] [Date "2000.10.01"] [Round "?"] [White "McLaughlin, Keith W"] [Black "Adams, Phil"] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [ECO "C02"] [PlyCount "120"] 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Qb6 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Be2 cxd4 7. cxd4 Nh6 8. Bd3 Bd7 9. Bc2 f6 10. exf6 gxf6 11. Nc3 Nf7 12. O-O Bd6 13. Ba4 O-O-O 14. Nb5 Bb8 15. Qb3 Rdg8 16. Bd2 Rg7 17. Rac1 Rhg8 18. g3 Kd8 19. Rfe1 a6 20. Nc3 Qxb3 21. Bxb3 Ba7 22. Ne2 Nd6 23. Bh6 Re7 24. Bf4 Ne4 25. Be3 b5 26. Bc2 Be8 27. a3 Nd6 28. b3 Kd7 29. Nf4 Bg6 30. Re2 Na5 31. Bd2 Bxc2 32. Rxc2 Bb6 33. Bb4 Nab7 34. Nd3 a5 35. Bc5 Bc7 36. Bxd6 Bxd6 37. Nc5+ Bxc5 38. dxc5 Rc8 39. b4 axb4 40. axb4 Nd8 41. Nd4 Nc6 42. Nxc6 Kxc6 43. Ra2 d4 44. Kf1 e5 45. Rec2 Kd5 46. Ke2 e4 47. Rc1 f5 48. Ra6 Rc6 49. Ra8 Rd7 50. Rb8 d3+ 51. Ke3 Ra7 52. Rf8 Ke5 53. f4+ Ke6 54. g4 Ra2 55. gxf5+ Ke7 56. Rh8 Re2+ 57. Kd4 d2 58. Rd1 Kf6 59. Kc3 e3 60. Rxh7 Kxf5 1/2-1/2 The Timman connection is probably that he played Bd3-c2 (xf5) in a slightly different position in a game he annotated very instructively for New in Chess magazine: [Event "Sigeman & Co"] [Site "Malmoe"] [Date "2000.05.23"] [Round "1"] [White "Timman, Jan H"] [Black "Andersson, Ulf"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "C02"] [WhiteElo "2655"] [BlackElo "2625"] [PlyCount "59"] [EventDate "2000.05.23"] [EventType "tourn"] [EventRounds "6"] [EventCountry "SWE"] [EventCategory "15"] [Source "ChessBase"] [SourceDate "2000.08.18"] 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Nge7 6. Bd3 cxd4 7. cxd4 Nf5 8. Bc2 Qb6 9. Bxf5 exf5 10. Nc3 Be6 11. O-O h6 12. Na4 Qb5 13. Ne1 Be7 14. Be3 Rc8 15. Nd3 b6 16. Nc3 Qc4 17. Rc1 g5 18. f4 g4 19. a4 Nb4 20. Nf2 Qa6 21. Nb5 Rxc1 22. Bxc1 Kd7 23. Nxg4 fxg4 24. f5 Rg8 25. fxe6+ fxe6 26. Bd2 Nc6 27. Bxh6 Qc8 28. Rf7 Rh8 29. Nd6 Qg8 30. Bg7 1-0 Incidentally, I was interested to find that Moskalenko (in The Flexible French, pp 14, 16 and 23) considers that the structure with doubled f-pawns and a bishop on e6 is generally OK for Black, although it is usually important to prevent the exchange of the dark-squared bishops.


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JonathanB

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C02: Another lost tempo in the Advance
07/31/08 at 08:46:06

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A while ago Dom raised the idea of White losing a tempo in the Euwe line of the advance variation

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1199562081

and the general feeling was the idea didn't work.

But what about in the ... Qb6 line.

1. e4 e6, 2. d4 d5, 3. e5 c5, 4. c3 Nc6, 5. Nf3 Qb6, 6. Be2 Nh6, 7. Bd3

I had a game in this line earlier in the year. Never having seen it before - and not quite believing my eyes - I played what I thought was obvious and should lead to a position for me that was at least OK and possible even a bit better. Btw: I had assumed White was going to play a Milner-Barry and hope to prove that the the Nh6 would harm Black so I was surprised for a second time when he went for ...

7. ... Bd7, 8. Bc2 cxd4, 9. cxd4 Nb4, 10. Bxh6 gxh6, 11. 0-0 Nxc2, 12. Qxc2 Rc8. 13. Nc3 Bg7, 14. Qd2 0-0, 15. Re1

Of course I was intending ... f6. When I went in for ... Nb4 I thought this might be =+ like similar lines discussed in the earlier thread but when i got here it seemed to me that I was not even equal at this point.

Later I discovered Watson (PtF3) calls 9. ... Nb4 equal but had earlier (PtF2) described it as "!?" and leading to a position almost identical to the one just above which he says gives "doubled-edged play".

Pshakis in contrast gives 9. ... Nb4 as "?!" and I think (I don't have the book immediately to hand) assesses the second diagram as += which seems right to me.

My feeling is that the ... Nb4 intending ... Nxc2 idea doesn't really work well for Black when White can play Bxh6. Watson suggests 9. ... Nf5 and 9. ... f6 in place of 9. ... Nb4. Any thoughts on this?

PS: A final question... I'm sure my opponent told me after the game this was an idea of Timman's. Well I may have remembered that incorrectly because Watson says Soltis gives 7. Bd3 a "!" and attributes the idea to Fishbein. Does anybody know who deserves the credit for this strange tempo losing move.

« Last Edit: 07/27/11 at 18:40:53 by dom »

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.

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