Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Scary Good Idea In the KID:  ...c6 ..a6...b5 (Read 7374 times)
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Re: Scary Good Idea In the KID:  ...c6 ..a6...b5
Reply #13 - 09/16/08 at 00:48:48
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here's a recent (2005) game from Kamsky.  Kamsky looked like he wanted to get into a position where he could try and outplay Vallejo without worrying about 20 moves of theory.

[Event "FIDE World Cup"]
[Site "Khanty Mansyisk RUS"]
[Date "2005.12.12"]
[EventDate "2005.11.27"]
[Round "6.4"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Francisco Vallejo-Pons"]
[Black "Gata Kamsky"]
[ECO "E91"]
[WhiteElo "2674"]
[BlackElo "2690"]
[PlyCount "90"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 c6
7. O-O a6 8. e5 dxe5 9. Nxe5 Be6 10. Be3 Nbd7 11. h3 Rc8
12. Nf3 b5 13. c5 Nd5 14. Bg5 h6 15. Bh4 N7f6 16. a4 Nh5
17. Ne5 Nhf4 18. Bf3 Nxc3 19. bxc3 Bxe5 20. dxe5 Bd5 21. axb5
axb5 22. Ra6 Re8 23. Bg3 Bxf3 24. Qxf3 Ne6 25. h4 Qd5 26. Qxd5
cxd5 27. c6 Rc7 28. Rd1 Nc5 29. Ra5 e6 30. Rxb5 Rxc6 31. Bf4
Ne4 32. Re1 Nxc3 33. Rb7 Kg7 34. Kh2 Rec8 35. Ra1 R6c7 36. Rb3
d4 37. Bd2 Ne4 38. Be1 Rc1 39. Rbb1 Rxb1 40. Rxb1 d3 41. f3 d2
42. fxe4 Rc1 43. Bxd2 Rxb1 44. Kg3 Rb3+ 45. Kg4 Rb2 0-1
  
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Re: Scary Good Idea In the KID:  ...c6 ..a6...b5
Reply #12 - 08/04/08 at 18:48:55
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This looks similar to the way that Duncan Suttles used to handle the Modern.  It might be worth looking at his games...
  

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Re: Scary Good Idea In the KID:  ...c6 ..a6...b5
Reply #11 - 08/04/08 at 12:32:39
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Matemax wrote on 08/03/08 at 20:41:28:

Sorry if this sounds superficious. (my emphasis)


Superficious is one of the more interesting words that does not exist in the English language.  I was suprised to discover that it does enjoy actual use.  Here for example: http://www.eng.fju.edu.tw/~eng/BBS_Restore/bbs_ray/journal_drama/52.htm
and here:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/ResponseDetails.jhtml?resNo=3167596&i...

It appears to be pejorative, but I am not sure from these examples what a definition would be.
  

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Re: Scary Good Idea In the KID:  ...c6 ..a6...b5
Reply #10 - 08/03/08 at 20:41:28
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Quote:
Not sure what to make of comments like "nearly plays itself" and "probably not enough to hold against a strong opponent."  I mean, it just seems like a sort of normal decent "+= with best play" line.

Sorry if this sounds superficious. I wanted to point out that my opinion is somewhat splitted: the system looks attractive to play cause it has a clear plan - on the other hand I think its too risky to give the center to a strong opponent. += would also be my assessment, but I would say a clear steady += instead of a normal decent on.
  
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Re: Scary Good Idea In the KID:  ...c6 ..a6...b5
Reply #9 - 08/03/08 at 19:48:37
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Indeed ...Ne8 seems to be the normal move in that particular sort of position.  And indeed letting "letting Black carry out the threat" is the norm rather than the exception, and answering it with cb followed by b4 is one standard idea (it can be seen in a game Geller-Fischer in the Saemisch, to name the first example that comes to mind). 

Regarding a4, I would say it usually isn't the possibility of a knight coming to b4 that is of most concern to White, but that it makes a knight coming to c5 (pressing against a4/b3/e4) feel so secure.

Not sure what to make of comments like "nearly plays itself" and "probably not enough to hold against a strong opponent."  I mean, it just seems like a sort of normal decent "+= with best play" line.
  
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Re: Scary Good Idea In the KID:  ...c6 ..a6...b5
Reply #8 - 08/03/08 at 18:55:17
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Going for e5 is certainly a serious idea if Black has "forgotten" to play in the center. After e5 playing Ne8 is probably the only way to proceed for Black (he has to crack to White center - otherwise he will be strangled) - taking on e5, White may take back with the knight as was played by GM Flear in this line.

Playing a4 before the knight has moved to d7 is nearly always premature in the KI - there are excellent examples in the Saemisch where White misses the a5! idea from Black and invites Black to b4. Isnt the KI also about cramping Black? - Giving Black the b4-square for one of his pieces seems to be a step in the other direction.

On more venomous idea from White may be playing a3 and letting Black excecute the "threat" b5 - then taking on b5 and follow up with b4: c6 and b5 is weak - I think Mikhalevski tried this.

On the other hand the real scary good idea for me is that the system nearly plays itself if you just be a bit carefull with Black. Probably not enough to hold against a strong opponent, but enough for fast time controlls and selected opponents. A nice surprise weapon - and as every surprise weapon it should be used according to its name and not every time.

Your making me appetite for picking up the KI again ...
  
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Re: Scary Good Idea In the KID:  ...c6 ..a6...b5
Reply #7 - 08/03/08 at 02:44:46
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I would tend to think that a4 is sub-optimal in both cases, and I notice that ECO doesn't mention it in either one.  In the first line, the immediate 8. e5 is supposed to be one of the ways White can reach a slight advantage.  In the second line, the argument about the knight being misplaced doesn't look convincing, since a4 should still lead to it having a comfortable home on c5.

(edit:  I should have said that ECO doesn't mention 8. a4 a5 9. e5 in the first line.  It does mention 8. a4 a5, and thinks it should lead to equality.)
« Last Edit: 08/03/08 at 06:54:49 by kylemeister »  
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Re: Scary Good Idea In the KID:  ...c6 ..a6...b5
Reply #6 - 08/03/08 at 01:01:49
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 c6 7.0-0 a6 8.a4 a5 9.e5 looks very scary to me.
I also looked at 6...Nbd7 7.0-0 e5 8.Re1 c6 9.Bf1 a6 10.a4 (arguing that Nbd7 is misplaced) a5 11.h3. Am I right that White has a stable edge, because the future of Bc8 is uncertain?
  

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Re: Scary Good Idea In the KID:  ...c6 ..a6...b5
Reply #5 - 08/01/08 at 19:42:39
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I don't think there's any doubt that it is possible against the Classical, and I don't think that the accelerated Byrne should result in a crushing defeat for Black.
  
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Re: Scary Good Idea In the KID:  ...c6 ..a6...b5
Reply #4 - 08/01/08 at 19:31:37
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c6/a6/b5 is one of the standard ideas in the KI - it is even possible against g3, which I think is surprising considering that there may be something hanging along the long diagonal due to the bishop on g2.

I remember three important points about this "universal" system for black:

1) one should not forget about the center - the flank attack is certainly to slow against the 4-pawns-systems - black is simply busted

2) one should not forget about fast king attack - I remember that playing the system "accelerated" (which is without castling ) against the Saemisch would lead to a crushing defeat for Black

3) one should keep the Knight on b8 and start with c6, a6 - the reason is to hope for White playing a4?! when a5! followed by Na6 - Nb4 gives Black good play

Perhaps someone could add more common places ...  Wink

I am not sure if the system is possible against the classical variation - probably White will play e5 or c5 fast and Black may find himself in trouble.
  
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Re: Scary Good Idea In the KID:  ...c6 ..a6...b5
Reply #3 - 08/01/08 at 18:49:40
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I notice that e.g. 6...c6 7. 0-0 a6 has been played by a number of GMs over the years (decades), but I'm not up on any recent flourishing of it ...

(My first thought was "it looks like the kind of thing Westerinen may have played in the '70s" -- bingo.)
  
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Re: Scary Good Idea In the KID:  ...c6 ..a6...b5
Reply #2 - 08/01/08 at 18:04:56
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Yeah, Kyle, thx for pointing out that small detail. Embarrassed

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Nf3 Black plays 6...c6 and usually foregoes e5 for q-side counterplay.
  
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Re: Scary Good Idea In the KID:  ...c6 ..a6...b5
Reply #1 - 08/01/08 at 15:55:58
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I suppose you mean in the Classical (not e.g. the Byrne system in the Saemisch)?
  
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Scary Good Idea In the KID:  ...c6 ..a6...b5
08/01/08 at 15:48:32
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Hi all!

I've recently seen several games in which Black eschews ...e5 and instead plays 6...c6 7...a6 followed fairly quickly by ...b5.  

I haven't run any stats on this line yet, and suspect that they won't be helpful since it seems like such a new idea.

Does anyone have any clues about the provenance of this plan, and how White should go about tackling it? 
I'll try to provide some game examples in the near future, but I know that it's appeared in a few GM games recently.
  
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