ChessPub Forum - Why don't I understand endgames?

Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Why don't I understand endgames? Reply #47 - 12/11/08 at 11:57:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	micawber wrote on 12/10/08 at 13:31:38: I think I am getting a bit old.., as I sometimes think back to the old times, when games were ajourned. I learned quite a bit from analysing adjourned positions from team competitions. Quite a lot of valuable endgame analyses was published as a result. Analyses of an endgame with several players can be quite stimulating, and provides a good learning experience. In the absence of adjouned games, creating a training situation like this can be quite valuable. Mix several improving players and an experienced chess coach: succes assured. Yep we also used to have arbitration for team matches, so that you didnt have to play the game out a week later (usually involving traveling). You would put up your expected result and your opponent his and if they were different it was up for arbitration. You had one week to pull back your claim (and thus not pay an arbitration fee), so that you would usually analyse the position with clubmates quite deeply. It were almost always endgame positions so you would learn a lot.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Why don't I understand endgames? Reply #46 - 12/10/08 at 13:31:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think I am getting a bit old.., as I sometimes think back to the old times, when games were ajourned. I learned quite a bit from analysing adjourned positions from team competitions. Quite a lot of valuable endgame analyses was published as a result. Analyses of an endgame with several players can be quite stimulating, and provides a good learning experience. In the absence of adjouned games, creating a training situation like this can be quite valuable. Mix several improving players and an experienced chess coach: succes assured.


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Why don't I understand endgames? Reply #45 - 12/07/08 at 17:41:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Oh, btw, In working out endgame puzzles, it helps to look at the moves that change the nature of the position first. For instance, in pawn endings, analyse pawn pushes FIRST. After that, find out why the obvious moves don't work. If you still don't know what the right move is, then start looking for the more bizarre and baroque moves.


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Why don't I understand endgames? Reply #44 - 12/07/08 at 17:29:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	One person asked what candidate moves should we consider in analysing the above endgame. The answer, for *all* King and Pawn endgames, is EVERY possible move. King and Pawn endgames can be "solved", and we can solve them by using a variety of techniques and memorizing as many simple pawn endings as possible. Forget about memorizing the latest variation of the Najdorf to the 25th move, instead save your memory for the endgames! In this way, you will find deceptive endgames such as this one part of your arsenal for practical games!


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chk God Member Offline a pawn is a pawn Posts: 1063 Location: Athens Joined: 10/26/06 Gender:	Re: Why don't I understand endgames? Reply #43 - 11/03/08 at 10:22:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	chk wrote on 09/22/08 at 09:04:22: Willempie wrote on 09/21/08 at 12:08:20: Iirc it only works if you put up maximum 5 pieces or pawns. So 2 pawns vs 1 will work, but not 2 vs 2. Important: except 5 vs. 1 (e.g. does not work if Black has a sole King vs. White King + 4 pieces) Moreover, I once inserted a difficult 'mate in 2' position and it could only find a mate in 3 (just like me ), iirc it was K+Q+R+N vs. K+R. I have this position in my notes (the correct solution too) and if time allows I will check it again with the tablebases and post it here. Sorry to interrupt your discussion, but I was organising some of my notes and found the example I mention above, it is: White to mate in 2: White: Kc5 / Qg2 / Re7 / Ne6 Black: Ke5 (sorry for not posting a diagram - I have no clue) First time I tried was about 8 months ago and the tablebases in the link given could not find the correct answer. However, today I tried again and it does find the correct (single) solution! So I suppose they continuously improve the site (but still have the disclaimer: "All 6-men tables online (except 5 vs. 1)").

	"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
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up and comer Senior Member Offline Posts: 258 Joined: 10/20/08 Gender:	Re: Why don't I understand endgames? Reply #42 - 11/03/08 at 03:52:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	I didn't see g4+ after g3. Thats hard to spot.

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up and comer Senior Member Offline Posts: 258 Joined: 10/20/08 Gender:	Re: Why don't I understand endgames? Reply #41 - 11/03/08 at 01:18:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ah sorry didn't see the link you posted my mistake.
	« Last Edit: 11/03/08 at 03:19:09 by up and comer »
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up and comer Senior Member Offline Posts: 258 Joined: 10/20/08 Gender:	Re: Why don't I understand endgames? Reply #40 - 11/03/08 at 01:16:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	1. Ke2 Kf5 2. Kf3 g4+ 3. Kf2 where Kf4 is met by g3+, Kg5 is met by Kg3 and where h4 is met Kf1 taking the opposition. If g3 then the white king shuffles around g1 and h1 waiting for stalemate. 1. Ke2 h4 2. Kf2 where Kh5 is met by 3. Kf3 and if g4+ 4. Kf4 h3 5. gxh3 gxh3 6. Kg3. g4 is met with Ke2 where black can make no headway. Kf5 3. Kf3 g4+ 4. Kf2 where once again black makes no headway with Kf4 because of 5. g3+ hxg3 6. kg2 and its simplified to a drawn k+p vs king in front of pawn. 1. Ke2 g4 2. Kf2 where I see nothing for black ( h4 is met by ke2 taking the opposition and its a repeat of my last example). Kg5 is met by 3. Kg3 where h4+ 4. Kf2 is another repeat drawn situation. if Kg5 3. Kg3 Kf5 then Kh4 is a draw (or even Kf2 repeating the first example). and if Kf5 3. Kf1 taking the distant opposition draws. edit: Ke2 loses to Kf5 where Kf3 is met by h4. You were right.
	« Last Edit: 11/03/08 at 03:21:57 by up and comer »
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up and comer Senior Member Offline Posts: 258 Joined: 10/20/08 Gender:	Re: Why don't I understand endgames? Reply #39 - 11/03/08 at 00:46:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Paddy wrote on 11/03/08 at 00:02:16: No, 1 Ke2 just loses, for reasons I'd thought I'd explained. I suggest that it would be instructive for you to analyse the position thoroughly for yourself, writing down what you consider to be the key lines/ideas. Then I think you would learn a lot by checking your conclusions at http://www.shredderchess.de/online-schach/online-datenbanken/endspiel-datenbank.... or any other source of tablebases. Sorry if this reply seems a bit curt, but a contribution such as "I'm thinking Ke2, taking the indirect opposition also holds, as black has no way to penetrate into the position" is actually quite fortunate to receive any reply at all. Didn't mean to offend you or anything, I was just posting what looked to be another way to win besides your move. I guess I will analyze the position more thoroughly and see if Ke2 wins or loses.

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Paddy

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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #38 - 11/03/08 at 00:02:16

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up and comer wrote on 11/02/08 at 22:44:17:

Paddy wrote on 08/15/08 at 17:08:48:

Bocajaka wrote on 08/14/08 at 20:28:13:

This is seriously discouraging Sad

I feel like I get 75% wrong.

Perhaps my problem is even more fundamental than I thought. Maybe I do not fully understand basics such as opposition.

Take this one for example:

White to move and draw

In endgame terms this is in the category "very very easy" but I have no clue of what candidates or whatever to consider. I feel lost!!

Let me just ensure you that I am not retarded or anything (I know that for a fact), but endgames are very difficult for me. How easily do you see the drawing line here?

This one is certainly NOT "very very easy". In one line White has to make a series of only moves to draw.

It is very hard for a human to solve such positions by calculation alone. You have to know what you are aiming for and what you are trying to avoid, which means you simply must know and understand the relevant basic positions.

Considerations:
a) If the position reduces to K+ h-pawn v K it's an easy draw.
b) if it reduces to K+g-pawn, the position Pg5, BKg4, WKg2 is drawn unless Black has the opposition.
c) If the Black king is allowed to push the white king back, then the white position will rapidly become critical.
d) Based on b) above, if it were Black's move and he played the obvious 1...Kf5 then White could immediately force a draw by 2 g4+! hxg4 3 Kg3.
e) White's king is therefore in its best position for the moment, both for holding up the black pawns and preventing the advance of Black's king.

So, White should play 1 g3! (only move to draw) and now I think the main lines are:

1...Kf5 2.g4+! hxg4+ 3.Kg3 Kf6 4.Kxg4=; this resource is vital in many K+P endings.
1...h4 2.gxh4 gxh4 3.Kg4 or even Kg2=
1...g4+ 2.Kg2 [All other moves draw, except 2.Ke4?? Kg5 3. Ke3 h4 4. gxh4+ Kxh4 5. Kf2 Kh3 6. Kg1 Kg3 and Black reaches a basic winning position (king on the 6th rank ahead of the pawn).] 2…Kf5 3.Kf1 Ke4 4.Ke2 Kd4 5.Kd2=;
1…Kf6 (probably the best winning try, hoping to induce an error from White in the coming manoeuvring phase.) 2.Kf2 (only move)
and now:
a) 2… Ke5 3.Ke3 o.m. Kd5 4.Kd3 o.m. g4 (4...h4 5.gxh4 gxh4 6.Ke3=) 5.Ke3 o.m. Ke5 6.Kd3 o.m. = Black can gain the opposition but it does not help him, since the f4 square is unavailable to him and the white king cannot be pulled outside the square of Black’s g-pawn, so the sac …h4 achieves nothing.
b) 2...g4 3.Ke3 Ke5 (3...Kg5 4.Kf2 o.m. =) 4.Kd3 Kd5 (4...h4 5.gxh4 g3 6.Ke3 Kf5 7.Kf3=) 5.Ke3 Ke5=;
c) 2...Kf5 3.Kf3 o.m.=

Please let me know if anyone finds any errors in the above, or if I’ve missed out any important lines or ideas.

I'm thinking Ke2, taking the indirect opposition also holds, as black has no way to penetrate into the position

No, 1 Ke2 just loses, for reasons I'd thought I'd explained.

I suggest that it would be instructive for you to analyse the position thoroughly for yourself, writing down what you consider to be the key lines/ideas. Then I think you would learn a lot by checking your conclusions at

http://www.shredderchess.de/online-schach/online-datenbanken/endspiel-datenbank....

or any other source of tablebases.

Sorry if this reply seems a bit curt, but a contribution such as "I'm thinking Ke2, taking the indirect opposition also holds, as black has no way to penetrate into the position" is actually quite fortunate to receive any reply at all.

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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #37 - 11/02/08 at 22:44:17

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Paddy wrote on 08/15/08 at 17:08:48:

Bocajaka wrote on 08/14/08 at 20:28:13:

This is seriously discouraging Sad

I feel like I get 75% wrong.

Perhaps my problem is even more fundamental than I thought. Maybe I do not fully understand basics such as opposition.

Take this one for example:

White to move and draw

In endgame terms this is in the category "very very easy" but I have no clue of what candidates or whatever to consider. I feel lost!!

Let me just ensure you that I am not retarded or anything (I know that for a fact), but endgames are very difficult for me. How easily do you see the drawing line here?

This one is certainly NOT "very very easy". In one line White has to make a series of only moves to draw.

It is very hard for a human to solve such positions by calculation alone. You have to know what you are aiming for and what you are trying to avoid, which means you simply must know and understand the relevant basic positions.

Considerations:
a) If the position reduces to K+ h-pawn v K it's an easy draw.
b) if it reduces to K+g-pawn, the position Pg5, BKg4, WKg2 is drawn unless Black has the opposition.
c) If the Black king is allowed to push the white king back, then the white position will rapidly become critical.
d) Based on b) above, if it were Black's move and he played the obvious 1...Kf5 then White could immediately force a draw by 2 g4+! hxg4 3 Kg3.
e) White's king is therefore in its best position for the moment, both for holding up the black pawns and preventing the advance of Black's king.

So, White should play 1 g3! (only move to draw) and now I think the main lines are:

1...Kf5 2.g4+! hxg4+ 3.Kg3 Kf6 4.Kxg4=; this resource is vital in many K+P endings.
1...h4 2.gxh4 gxh4 3.Kg4 or even Kg2=
1...g4+ 2.Kg2 [All other moves draw, except 2.Ke4?? Kg5 3. Ke3 h4 4. gxh4+ Kxh4 5. Kf2 Kh3 6. Kg1 Kg3 and Black reaches a basic winning position (king on the 6th rank ahead of the pawn).] 2…Kf5 3.Kf1 Ke4 4.Ke2 Kd4 5.Kd2=;
1…Kf6 (probably the best winning try, hoping to induce an error from White in the coming manoeuvring phase.) 2.Kf2 (only move)
and now:
a) 2… Ke5 3.Ke3 o.m. Kd5 4.Kd3 o.m. g4 (4...h4 5.gxh4 gxh4 6.Ke3=) 5.Ke3 o.m. Ke5 6.Kd3 o.m. = Black can gain the opposition but it does not help him, since the f4 square is unavailable to him and the white king cannot be pulled outside the square of Black’s g-pawn, so the sac …h4 achieves nothing.
b) 2...g4 3.Ke3 Ke5 (3...Kg5 4.Kf2 o.m. =) 4.Kd3 Kd5 (4...h4 5.gxh4 g3 6.Ke3 Kf5 7.Kf3=) 5.Ke3 Ke5=;
c) 2...Kf5 3.Kf3 o.m.=

Please let me know if anyone finds any errors in the above, or if I’ve missed out any important lines or ideas.

I'm thinking Ke2, taking the indirect opposition also holds, as black has no way to penetrate into the position

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Voprak YaBB Newbies Offline I love ChessPublishing ! Posts: 41 Location: Adams Joined: 01/29/03 Gender:	Re: Why don't I understand endgames? Reply #36 - 10/23/08 at 12:41:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Bocajaka, I would suggest the book series "Essential endgames explained move by move" to help you get a grip on endings. They have many, many diagrams so that a set is not even needed to play through moves. Simple to understand explanations provided for each move to see the ideas behind drawing/winning techniques. I have a copy at work for lunchbreaks. I'm no endgame master but these books helped alot. Happy Training


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chk God Member Offline a pawn is a pawn Posts: 1063 Location: Athens Joined: 10/26/06 Gender:	Re: Why don't I understand endgames? Reply #35 - 09/22/08 at 09:04:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie wrote on 09/21/08 at 12:08:20: Iirc it only works if you put up maximum 5 pieces or pawns. So 2 pawns vs 1 will work, but not 2 vs 2. Important: except 5 vs. 1 (e.g. does not work if Black has a sole King vs. White King + 4 pieces) Moreover, I once inserted a difficult 'mate in 2' position and it could only find a mate in 3 (just like me ), iirc it was K+Q+R+N vs. K+R. I have this position in my notes (the correct solution too) and if time allows I will check it again with the tablebases and post it here.

	"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Why don't I understand endgames? Reply #34 - 09/21/08 at 12:08:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	bearheart wrote on 09/21/08 at 11:47:42: I went to the Shredder endgame game through the supplied link; however, I could not get my position analyzed after setting it up. Even set up the English page, but could not get Shredder to move to analyze it. Guess I am too ignorant to figure out how to get it to work. Does anyone know how? Iirc it only works if you put up maximum 5 pieces or pawns. So 2 pawns vs 1 will work, but not 2 vs 2.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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bearheart YaBB Newbies Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 23 Location: Mound Joined: 02/19/05	Re: Why don't I understand endgames? Reply #33 - 09/21/08 at 11:47:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	I went to the Shredder endgame game through the supplied link; however, I could not get my position analyzed after setting it up. Even set up the English page, but could not get Shredder to move to analyze it. Guess I am too ignorant to figure out how to get it to work. Does anyone know how?


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