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Paddy
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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #17 - 08/15/08 at 17:08:48
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Bocajaka wrote on 08/14/08 at 20:28:13:
This is seriously discouraging Sad I feel like I get 75% wrong.

Perhaps my problem is even more fundamental than I thought. Maybe I do not fully understand basics such as opposition.

Take this one for example:

White to move and draw

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


In endgame terms this is in the category "very very easy" but I have no clue of what candidates or whatever to consider. I feel lost!!

Let me just ensure you that I am not retarded or anything (I know that for a fact), but endgames are very difficult for me. How easily do you see the drawing line here?




This one is certainly NOT "very very easy". In one line White has to make a series of only moves to draw.

It is very hard for a human to solve such positions by calculation alone. You have to know what you are aiming for and what you are trying to avoid, which means you simply must know and understand the relevant basic positions.

Considerations:
a) If the position reduces to K+ h-pawn v K it's an easy draw.
b) if it reduces to K+g-pawn,  the position Pg5, BKg4, WKg2 is drawn unless Black has the opposition.
c) If the Black king is allowed to push the white king back, then the white position will rapidly become critical.
d) Based on b) above, if it were Black's move and he played the obvious 1...Kf5 then White could immediately force a draw by 2 g4+! hxg4 3 Kg3.
e) White's king is therefore in its best position for the moment, both for holding up the black pawns and preventing the advance of Black's king.

So, White should play 1 g3! (only move to draw) and now I think the main lines are:

1...Kf5 2.g4+! hxg4+ 3.Kg3 Kf6 4.Kxg4=;  this resource is vital in many K+P endings.
1...h4 2.gxh4 gxh4 3.Kg4 or even Kg2=
1...g4+ 2.Kg2 [All other moves draw, except 2.Ke4?? Kg5 3. Ke3 h4 4. gxh4+ Kxh4 5. Kf2 Kh3 6. Kg1 Kg3 and Black reaches a basic winning position (king on the 6th rank ahead of the pawn).] 2…Kf5 3.Kf1 Ke4 4.Ke2 Kd4 5.Kd2=; 
1…Kf6 (probably the best winning try, hoping to induce an error from White in the coming manoeuvring phase.) 2.Kf2 (only move) 
and now:
a)      2… Ke5 3.Ke3 o.m. Kd5 4.Kd3 o.m. g4 (4...h4 5.gxh4 gxh4 6.Ke3=) 5.Ke3 o.m. Ke5 6.Kd3 o.m. =  Black can gain the opposition but it does not help him, since the f4 square is unavailable to him and the white king cannot be pulled outside the square of Black’s g-pawn, so the sac …h4 achieves nothing.
b)      2...g4 3.Ke3 Ke5 (3...Kg5 4.Kf2 o.m. =) 4.Kd3 Kd5 (4...h4 5.gxh4 g3 6.Ke3 Kf5 7.Kf3=) 5.Ke3 Ke5=;
c)      2...Kf5 3.Kf3 o.m.= 

Please let me know if anyone finds any errors in the above, or if I’ve missed out any important lines or ideas.

  
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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #16 - 08/15/08 at 01:57:46
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Bocajaka wrote on 08/14/08 at 19:46:35:
I have already started to notice some endgame patterns and it's getting easier to solve some of the positions. Thanks to all of you.

However, I shall keep on bothering you with another position:

White to move 

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


In this position I notice that I am going to lose e5 and thus will have to try to get a draw (if my pawn was passed I would try to win!).

So here I tried first 1.b4! with the idea that if he takes it I win, but ofcourse he does not. But I still seriously thought that perhaps I could draw anyway after 1...Kxe5.

Then I looked at 1.Kg3 emmediately 1...Kxe5 2.Kg4 Kf5 3.Kh5 and I felt I could not reach a draw.

So I got discouraged and gave up and looked at the answer, 1...Kh3. 

As you can see I did not look further than 3 moves (which is very little for being an endgame) but again I can not blame myself. I remember when I was starting out and tried to solve a middlegame position, the same thing happend to me, I got discouraged because I did not have a clue about what was going on. Namely I did not see any "ideas", that is tactical motifs etc. Nowadays, middlegames are not very mystical too me, they are more of an calculation exercise if you understand what I mean.

But the question is whether or not I can learn endgames such as in the same way. How easily do you guys see 1.Kh3. Do you even bother to calculate 1.b4 and 1.Kg3 or is it similar to you like calculating a really passive move when you have a mating attack in the middlegame? I'm very curious.

Btw, in this exercise I did not find any use for "corresponding squares". Should I have been able to use it or is this a completely different type of exercise.Don't get me wrong, I have had great use for this in lots of other excerises and it has helped my tremendously.


Pawn endings tend to be either pretty trivial (as long as you know, understand, and have practised till automatic, half a dozen basic positions and are familiar with some methods such as the opposition and triangulation) or quite tricky, sometimes fiendishly difficult. I tell students NOT to simplify into a pawn ending unless it is clear that it is trivially won/drawn, or unless the alternatives are clearly worse.

Soltis (in “Grandmaster Secrets - Endings”) laid down the commandment:

“Thou shalt not trade down to K+P unless you can safely bet your first-born child on the result.”

A bit over-the-top perhaps, but he gets the point across.

I certainly would not categorize this one as “very very easy”; it’s a bit tricky in fact.

I suggest you study an endgame primer before tackling these Polgar puzzles, otherwise you are definitely going find the going tough and become discouraged. It's like trying to solve tricky problems in geometry before you've mastered the basic theorems.

The position first of all requires one to know that if it reduces to a single black pawn on g5 plus kings, with White's king somewhere in front of the pawn it’s a draw unless Black can get his own king a) ahead of the pawn and b) with the opposition.

Pushing the e-pawn does not seem to achieve anything, so it is clear that White must either resign and head for the bar, or try to get counterplay by activating his king. However, 1 Kg3? fails to 1...h5!, suppressing counterplay. 

So 1 Kh3, the first real point of which appears when you see that it allows White to answer 1...h5 with 2 g4+! hxg4+ 3 Kg3 Kxe5 4 Kxg4 reaching one of the basic position-types (a draw in this case) that you need to learn. (So in a practical game 1 Kh3 could almost be chosen by elimination in fact.)

So then we examine some other tries for Black: 
1...g4+ 2 Kh4 seems fine for White.
1...Kxe5 2 Kg4 Kf6 allows 3 Kh5 since if 3...Kg7 4 g4 Kh7 stalemate!
1...Kg6 can be met either by 2 Kg4 h5+ 3 Kf3 Kf5 4 g4+! hxg4 5 Kg3 etc., or even 2 g4 as long as White can gain the opposition after Black eventually captures on e5, and it turns out he can: 2...Kf7 3 Kg3 Ke6 4  Kf3 Kxe5 5 Ke3.

If I've made an error or missed anything important I expect someone will soon tell me.


  
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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #15 - 08/14/08 at 20:28:13
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This is seriously discouraging Sad I feel like I get 75% wrong.

Perhaps my problem is even more fundamental than I thought. Maybe I do not fully understand basics such as opposition.

Take this one for example:

White to move and draw

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


In endgame terms this is in the category "very very easy" but I have no clue of what candidates or whatever to consider. I feel lost!!

Let me just ensure you that I am not retarded or anything (I know that for a fact), but endgames are very difficult for me. How easily do you see the drawing line here?
  
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Bocajaka
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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #14 - 08/14/08 at 19:46:35
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I have already started to notice some endgame patterns and it's getting easier to solve some of the positions. Thanks to all of you.

However, I shall keep on bothering you with another position:

White to move 

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


In this position I notice that I am going to lose e5 and thus will have to try to get a draw (if my pawn was passed I would try to win!).

So here I tried first 1.b4! with the idea that if he takes it I win, but ofcourse he does not. But I still seriously thought that perhaps I could draw anyway after 1...Kxe5.

Then I looked at 1.Kg3 emmediately 1...Kxe5 2.Kg4 Kf5 3.Kh5 and I felt I could not reach a draw.

So I got discouraged and gave up and looked at the answer, 1...Kh3. 

As you can see I did not look further than 3 moves (which is very little for being an endgame) but again I can not blame myself. I remember when I was starting out and tried to solve a middlegame position, the same thing happend to me, I got discouraged because I did not have a clue about what was going on. Namely I did not see any "ideas", that is tactical motifs etc. Nowadays, middlegames are not very mystical too me, they are more of an calculation exercise if you understand what I mean.

But the question is whether or not I can learn endgames such as in the same way. How easily do you guys see 1.Kh3. Do you even bother to calculate 1.b4 and 1.Kg3 or is it similar to you like calculating a really passive move when you have a mating attack in the middlegame? I'm very curious.

Btw, in this exercise I did not find any use for "corresponding squares". Should I have been able to use it or is this a completely different type of exercise.Don't get me wrong, I have had great use for this in lots of other excerises and it has helped my tremendously.
  
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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #13 - 08/12/08 at 08:48:23
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I'd say the square, corresponding squares (including opposition), pawn races and distant passers, 4 or 5 theoretical positions such as Ke6, e5 vs Ke8 or Kb6, b5 vs Kb8 and fingercounting (who's first).

Rook endgames are scary, but yes I suspect they are best learned via playing them, plus knowing some principles. Still in rook endgames you can see the best of the best making errors (me included Grin), so at the least you are in good company when you screw it up.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #12 - 08/12/08 at 07:49:12
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Willempie wrote on 08/12/08 at 07:42:36:
Bocajaka wrote on 08/11/08 at 16:27:22:
Thanks for the good explanation, I think I understand what you mean now! Let's repeat Wink 1.Kd5 Kc8 2.Kd4 Kd8 and now 3.Kc4! and white is threatening to go to d5 and c5 which requires black to cover the corresponding squares with 3...Kc8 4.Kd5 and now black is forced to defend against Kd6 but at the same time he gives up control over the corresponding square c7. I'm not completely sure I understand the logic behind this example though. Black's king is forced to move to a square he has already been to in order to cover the corresponding squares. When that happens white takes the "corresponding square opposition" (I'm not sure what to call it) and later he gets the "normal" opposition (c5,c7).

Is this thechnique something that you guys use intuitively or do you follow this scheme of finding the corresponding squares during your calculation? It seems a lot better than simply calculating every single king move although this should work aswell.

When is this thechnique useful? What happens if the position is more complicated (meaning more pawns for example), does it work as well then too?

It works best when there are blocked pawns and both kings are near to them. I use it to facilitate my calculations, so it is an addition not a replacement. It can also pop up in other endgames then pawn endgames, like knight endgames, but then it works differently. Ie you can force the king off the corresponding square with the knight. However in rook endgames and the likes it is almost useless (though it can pop up if you have to consider an exchange of rooks).
To answer your other question, yes I do it mainly on intuition, whence I have more problems with rook endgames than with pawn endgames. Wink


I will get to rook endgames in a few hundred problems or so and then you can be sure I will terrorise you some more  Grin

So basically now I know corresponding squares and opposition.  How many important thechniques do you believe there are in pawn endgames? 

I suppose wer are all different but personally I like to do it this way, by "doing and learning", instead of reading an instructional endgame book.
  
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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #11 - 08/12/08 at 07:42:36
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Bocajaka wrote on 08/11/08 at 16:27:22:
Thanks for the good explanation, I think I understand what you mean now! Let's repeat Wink 1.Kd5 Kc8 2.Kd4 Kd8 and now 3.Kc4! and white is threatening to go to d5 and c5 which requires black to cover the corresponding squares with 3...Kc8 4.Kd5 and now black is forced to defend against Kd6 but at the same time he gives up control over the corresponding square c7. I'm not completely sure I understand the logic behind this example though. Black's king is forced to move to a square he has already been to in order to cover the corresponding squares. When that happens white takes the "corresponding square opposition" (I'm not sure what to call it) and later he gets the "normal" opposition (c5,c7).

Is this thechnique something that you guys use intuitively or do you follow this scheme of finding the corresponding squares during your calculation? It seems a lot better than simply calculating every single king move although this should work aswell.

When is this thechnique useful? What happens if the position is more complicated (meaning more pawns for example), does it work as well then too?

It works best when there are blocked pawns and both kings are near to them. I use it to facilitate my calculations, so it is an addition not a replacement. It can also pop up in other endgames then pawn endgames, like knight endgames, but then it works differently. Ie you can force the king off the corresponding square with the knight. However in rook endgames and the likes it is almost useless (though it can pop up if you have to consider an exchange of rooks).
To answer your other question, yes I do it mainly on intuition, whence I have more problems with rook endgames than with pawn endgames. Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #10 - 08/11/08 at 16:41:58
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Thx guys for the corrections:

Indeed:
1.Kd5, Kf7 2.g6+, fxg6 3.fxg6 (instead of my error 3.hxg) wins.

1.f6+,xf6+ 2.xf6,Kf7 3.Kf5, And now either Ke8 or Kg8 draws
(iso of 3....h6 which is a clear error).
  
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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #9 - 08/11/08 at 16:27:22
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Willempie wrote on 08/11/08 at 14:38:34:
Bocajaka wrote on 08/11/08 at 12:47:44:
I still find it very intersting when you talk about corresponding squares. Please elaborate on this and explain what you mean, I have a little bit difficulty following you on this. Perhaps you could include an example of some sort.

Simplest example is the opposition. Another is:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Here if white wants to go to e6 black needs to go to g5. If that is not possible he loses. That means that whenever white can reach e6, black must be able to reach g5. So e6 and g5 are corresponding squares. 

If you take that one step further:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Here white is to move. If it were black to move he would lose immediately as he has to yield field b6.
That means that when white gets to c5 black needs to get to c7. So they correspond. Similarly if white could get to d6, black needs to be on d8, so they correspond as well. Now white moves 1.Kd5, which leaves him the option of reaching c5 or d6 next move. So black is forced to cover both corresponding squares, he can do that with 1..Kc8. So d5 and c8 are corresponding as well.
Now white moves 2.Kd4. This allows access to c5 and d5 for white. This means black should cover the corresponding squares c7 and c8 as well. He can do this with 2..Kd8 (or Kb8). Thus d4 and d8 are corresponding.

Now white can win by forcing black off the corresponding squares. As I am not going to take all the fun away I'll leave it to you Smiley


Thanks for the good explanation, I think I understand what you mean now! Let's repeat Wink 1.Kd5 Kc8 2.Kd4 Kd8 and now 3.Kc4! and white is threatening to go to d5 and c5 which requires black to cover the corresponding squares with 3...Kc8 4.Kd5 and now black is forced to defend against Kd6 but at the same time he gives up control over the corresponding square c7. I'm not completely sure I understand the logic behind this example though. Black's king is forced to move to a square he has already been to in order to cover the corresponding squares. When that happens white takes the "corresponding square opposition" (I'm not sure what to call it) and later he gets the "normal" opposition (c5,c7).

Is this thechnique something that you guys use intuitively or do you follow this scheme of finding the corresponding squares during your calculation? It seems a lot better than simply calculating every single king move although this should work aswell.

When is this thechnique useful? What happens if the position is more complicated (meaning more pawns for example), does it work as well then too?
  
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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #8 - 08/11/08 at 15:05:45
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I'm afraid I already took the fun away three posts back in the mirror-image position.
  

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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #7 - 08/11/08 at 14:38:34
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Bocajaka wrote on 08/11/08 at 12:47:44:
I still find it very intersting when you talk about corresponding squares. Please elaborate on this and explain what you mean, I have a little bit difficulty following you on this. Perhaps you could include an example of some sort.

Simplest example is the opposition. Another is:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Here if white wants to go to e6 black needs to go to g5. If that is not possible he loses. That means that whenever white can reach e6, black must be able to reach g5. So e6 and g5 are corresponding squares. 

If you take that one step further:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Here white is to move. If it were black to move he would lose immediately as he has to yield field b6.
That means that when white gets to c5 black needs to get to c7. So they correspond. Similarly if white could get to d6, black needs to be on d8, so they correspond as well. Now white moves 1.Kd5, which leaves him the option of reaching c5 or d6 next move. So black is forced to cover both corresponding squares, he can do that with 1..Kc8. So d5 and c8 are corresponding as well.
Now white moves 2.Kd4. This allows access to c5 and d5 for white. This means black should cover the corresponding squares c7 and c8 as well. He can do this with 2..Kd8 (or Kb8). Thus d4 and d8 are corresponding.

Now white can win by forcing black off the corresponding squares. As I am not going to take all the fun away I'll leave it to you Smiley
  

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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #6 - 08/11/08 at 13:29:46
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Yes, you are right; I followed Micawber's line rather uncritically. Moving the h-pawn is a terrible mistake as it allows W to set up the winnign maneuver, but W can accomplish nothing if the h-pawn stays on it's original square.

As an example of corresponding squares, just take my line after 3...h6.

As to your general question about endings, my answer would be that endings are all about building blocks. If you look at some of Micawber's terrific analyses, you will see how fruitfully he makes use of this method. These building blocks serve to orientate you; without them, you are looking at deducing everything from first principles, which is time-consuming and prone to error.
  

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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #5 - 08/11/08 at 12:47:44
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Dink Heckler wrote on 08/11/08 at 11:39:57:
Problem 1:

1 f6 wins, as Black gets zugzwanged.

1 f6 gf; 2 gf Kf7; 3 Kf5 h6; 4 Ke5 Kf8; 5 Kf4 Ke8; 6 Ke4...zugzwang.

6...Kf7; 7 Kf5, or 6...Kf8; 7 Ke5.

This is a simple example of corresponding squares. if White plays to one of the key squares, Black has to play to the corresponding square to hold the position.

the corresponding squares are f5 and f7, e5 and f8, e4/f4 correspond to e8/g8. hence Black's problem, as e8 and g8 are noncontiguous (Black would draw if he could play 6...Ke8-g8, maintaining the correspondence.

1...Kf7 is left as an exrecise for the reader  Smiley


I find your proposed answer very interesting although I believe it is wrong. After 1.f6+ gxf6 2.gxf6+ black playes 2...Ke8 and the point now is that white can not control the queening square with 3.Ke6 because black has an extra "pawn tempo", 3...Kf8 4.f7 h6. And giving up the f-pawn to go after the h-pawn doesn't work either, as we know because the h-pawn is a draw.

I still find it very intersting when you talk about corresponding squares. Please elaborate on this and explain what you mean, I have a little bit difficulty following you on this. Perhaps you could include an example of some sort.
  
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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #4 - 08/11/08 at 11:39:57
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Problem 1:

1 f6 wins, as Black gets zugzwanged.

1 f6 gf; 2 gf Kf7; 3 Kf5 h6; 4 Ke5 Kf8; 5 Kf4 Ke8; 6 Ke4...zugzwang.

6...Kf7; 7 Kf5, or 6...Kf8; 7 Ke5.

This is a simple example of corresponding squares. if White plays to one of the key squares, Black has to play to the corresponding square to hold the position.

the corresponding squares are f5 and f7, e5 and f8, e4/f4 correspond to e8/g8. hence Black's problem, as e8 and g8 are noncontiguous (Black would draw if he could play 6...Ke8-g8, maintaining the correspondence.

1...Kf7 is left as an exrecise for the reader  Smiley
  

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Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #3 - 08/11/08 at 07:46:23
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micawber wrote on 08/10/08 at 20:42:47:

So there seems to be no winning pawn-break.
What if I move my king. Hm 
1.Kd5 looks nice: 
After 1...Kd7 I can break through:  2.g6!,hxg 3.f6! winning

3.hxg6 wins as well in te same way as below.
Quote:

After 1...Kf7 2.g6,hxg6 3.fxg6+,Kf6 4.Kd6 black seems in trouble
4...Kg5 5.Ke7,Kxh5 6.Kf7! and I win 
(6.....Kg4 7.Kxg7,h5 8.Kf7,h4 9.g7,h3 10.g8Q+,; 6....Kh4 7.kxg7,Kh3 8.Kf7,h5 9.g7,h4 10.g8Q+ 11.Kh2,Qg4)

I think 1...Kf7 2.g6,hxg6 3.fxg6+ is a draw. I dont see what you can do after black goes into the corner.
3.hxg6 is winning as there is no frotress defense. The trick is to play f6 and Kf7 to push through the g-pawn.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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