Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why don't I understand endgames? (Read 28015 times)
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #47 - 12/11/08 at 11:57:46
Post Tools
micawber wrote on 12/10/08 at 13:31:38:
I think I am getting a bit old.., as I sometimes think back to the old times, when games were ajourned. I learned quite a bit from analysing adjourned positions from team competitions. Quite a lot of valuable endgame analyses was published as a result.
Analyses of an endgame with several players can be quite stimulating, and provides a good learning experience. 
In the absence of adjouned games, creating a training situation like this can be quite valuable. Mix several improving players and an experienced chess coach: succes assured. Wink

Yep we also used to have arbitration for team matches, so that you didnt have to play the game out a week later (usually involving traveling). You would put up your expected result and your opponent his and if they were different it was up for arbitration. You had one week to pull back your claim (and thus not pay an arbitration fee), so that you would usually analyse the position with clubmates quite deeply. It were almost always endgame positions so you would learn a lot.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #46 - 12/10/08 at 13:31:38
Post Tools
I think I am getting a bit old.., as I sometimes think back to the old times, when games were ajourned. I learned quite a bit from analysing adjourned positions from team competitions. Quite a lot of valuable endgame analyses was published as a result.
Analyses of an endgame with several players can be quite stimulating, and provides a good learning experience. 
In the absence of adjouned games, creating a training situation like this can be quite valuable. Mix several improving players and an experienced chess coach: succes assured. Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #45 - 12/07/08 at 17:41:41
Post Tools
Oh, btw, 

In working out endgame puzzles, it helps to look at the moves that change the nature of the position first.  For instance, in pawn endings, analyse pawn pushes FIRST.  After that, find out why the obvious moves don't work.  If you still don't know what the right move is, then start looking for the more bizarre and baroque moves.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #44 - 12/07/08 at 17:29:13
Post Tools
One person asked what candidate moves should we consider in analysing the above endgame.  The answer, for all King and Pawn endgames, is EVERY possible move.   

King and Pawn endgames can be "solved", and we can solve them by using a variety of techniques and memorizing as many  simple pawn endings as possible.   

Forget about memorizing the latest variation of the Najdorf to the 25th move, instead save your memory for the endgames!  In this way, you will find deceptive endgames such as this one part of your arsenal for practical games!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
chk
God Member
*****
Offline


a pawn is a pawn

Posts: 1063
Location: Athens
Joined: 10/26/06
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #43 - 11/03/08 at 10:22:22
Post Tools
chk wrote on 09/22/08 at 09:04:22:
Willempie wrote on 09/21/08 at 12:08:20:

Iirc it only works if you put up maximum 5 pieces or pawns. So 2 pawns vs 1 will work, but not 2 vs 2.



Important: except 5 vs. 1 (e.g. does not work if Black has a sole King vs. White King + 4 pieces)

Moreover, I once inserted a difficult 'mate in 2' position and it could only find a mate in 3 (just like me Wink ), iirc it was K+Q+R+N vs. K+R. I have this position in my notes (the correct solution too) and if time allows I will check it again with the tablebases and post it here.


Sorry to interrupt your discussion, but I was organising some of my notes and found the example I mention above, it is:

White to mate in 2:
White: Kc5 / Qg2 / Re7 / Ne6
Black: Ke5
(sorry for not posting a diagram - I have no clue)

First time I tried was about 8 months ago and the tablebases in the link given could not find the correct answer. However, today I tried again and it does find the correct (single) solution!

So I suppose they continuously improve the site (but still have the disclaimer: "All 6-men tables online (except 5 vs. 1)").
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
up and comer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 258
Joined: 10/20/08
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #42 - 11/03/08 at 03:52:00
Post Tools
I didn't see g4+ after g3. Thats hard to spot.
  

uscf - 2250
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
up and comer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 258
Joined: 10/20/08
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #41 - 11/03/08 at 01:18:57
Post Tools
Ah sorry didn't see the link you posted my mistake.
« Last Edit: 11/03/08 at 03:19:09 by up and comer »  

uscf - 2250
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
up and comer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 258
Joined: 10/20/08
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #40 - 11/03/08 at 01:16:19
Post Tools
1. Ke2 Kf5 2. Kf3 g4+ 3. Kf2 where Kf4 is met by g3+, Kg5 is met by Kg3 and where h4 is met Kf1 taking the opposition. If g3 then the white king shuffles around g1 and h1 waiting for stalemate.


1. Ke2 h4 2. Kf2 where Kh5 is met by 3. Kf3 and if g4+ 4. Kf4 h3 5. gxh3 gxh3 6. Kg3. g4 is met with Ke2 where black can make no headway. Kf5 3. Kf3 g4+ 4. Kf2 where once again black makes no headway with Kf4 because of 5. g3+ hxg3 6. kg2 and its simplified to a drawn k+p vs king in front of pawn.


1. Ke2 g4 2. Kf2 where I see nothing for black ( h4  is met by ke2 taking the opposition and its a repeat of my last example). Kg5 is met by 3. Kg3 where h4+ 4. Kf2 is another repeat drawn situation. if Kg5 3. Kg3 Kf5 then Kh4 is a draw (or even Kf2 repeating the first example).  and if Kf5 3. Kf1 taking the distant opposition draws.


edit: Ke2 loses to Kf5 where Kf3 is met by h4. You were right.
« Last Edit: 11/03/08 at 03:21:57 by up and comer »  

uscf - 2250
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
up and comer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 258
Joined: 10/20/08
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #39 - 11/03/08 at 00:46:01
Post Tools
Paddy wrote on 11/03/08 at 00:02:16:


No, 1 Ke2 just loses, for reasons I'd thought I'd explained. 

I suggest that it would be instructive for you to analyse the position thoroughly for yourself, writing down what you consider to be the key lines/ideas. Then I think you would learn a lot by checking your conclusions at

http://www.shredderchess.de/online-schach/online-datenbanken/endspiel-datenbank....

or any other source of tablebases.

Sorry if this reply seems a bit curt, but a contribution such as "I'm thinking Ke2, taking the indirect opposition also holds, as black has no way to penetrate into the position" is actually quite fortunate to receive any reply at all.


Didn't mean to offend you or anything, I was just posting what looked to be another way to win besides your move. I guess I will analyze the position more thoroughly and see if Ke2 wins or loses.
  

uscf - 2250
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 966
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #38 - 11/03/08 at 00:02:16
Post Tools
up and comer wrote on 11/02/08 at 22:44:17:
Paddy wrote on 08/15/08 at 17:08:48:
Bocajaka wrote on 08/14/08 at 20:28:13:
This is seriously discouraging Sad I feel like I get 75% wrong.

Perhaps my problem is even more fundamental than I thought. Maybe I do not fully understand basics such as opposition.

Take this one for example:

White to move and draw

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


In endgame terms this is in the category "very very easy" but I have no clue of what candidates or whatever to consider. I feel lost!!

Let me just ensure you that I am not retarded or anything (I know that for a fact), but endgames are very difficult for me. How easily do you see the drawing line here?




This one is certainly NOT "very very easy". In one line White has to make a series of only moves to draw.

It is very hard for a human to solve such positions by calculation alone. You have to know what you are aiming for and what you are trying to avoid, which means you simply must know and understand the relevant basic positions.

Considerations:
a) If the position reduces to K+ h-pawn v K it's an easy draw.
b) if it reduces to K+g-pawn,  the position Pg5, BKg4, WKg2 is drawn unless Black has the opposition.
c) If the Black king is allowed to push the white king back, then the white position will rapidly become critical.
d) Based on b) above, if it were Black's move and he played the obvious 1...Kf5 then White could immediately force a draw by 2 g4+! hxg4 3 Kg3.
e) White's king is therefore in its best position for the moment, both for holding up the black pawns and preventing the advance of Black's king.

So, White should play 1 g3! (only move to draw) and now I think the main lines are:

1...Kf5 2.g4+! hxg4+ 3.Kg3 Kf6 4.Kxg4=;  this resource is vital in many K+P endings.
1...h4 2.gxh4 gxh4 3.Kg4 or even Kg2=
1...g4+ 2.Kg2 [All other moves draw, except 2.Ke4?? Kg5 3. Ke3 h4 4. gxh4+ Kxh4 5. Kf2 Kh3 6. Kg1 Kg3 and Black reaches a basic winning position (king on the 6th rank ahead of the pawn).] 2…Kf5 3.Kf1 Ke4 4.Ke2 Kd4 5.Kd2=; 
1…Kf6 (probably the best winning try, hoping to induce an error from White in the coming manoeuvring phase.) 2.Kf2 (only move) 
and now:
a)      2… Ke5 3.Ke3 o.m. Kd5 4.Kd3 o.m. g4 (4...h4 5.gxh4 gxh4 6.Ke3=) 5.Ke3 o.m. Ke5 6.Kd3 o.m. =  Black can gain the opposition but it does not help him, since the f4 square is unavailable to him and the white king cannot be pulled outside the square of Black’s g-pawn, so the sac …h4 achieves nothing.
b)      2...g4 3.Ke3 Ke5 (3...Kg5 4.Kf2 o.m. =) 4.Kd3 Kd5 (4...h4 5.gxh4 g3 6.Ke3 Kf5 7.Kf3=) 5.Ke3 Ke5=;
c)      2...Kf5 3.Kf3 o.m.= 

Please let me know if anyone finds any errors in the above, or if I’ve missed out any important lines or ideas.



I'm thinking Ke2, taking the indirect opposition also holds, as black has no way to penetrate into the position


No, 1 Ke2 just loses, for reasons I'd thought I'd explained. 

I suggest that it would be instructive for you to analyse the position thoroughly for yourself, writing down what you consider to be the key lines/ideas. Then I think you would learn a lot by checking your conclusions at

http://www.shredderchess.de/online-schach/online-datenbanken/endspiel-datenbank....

or any other source of tablebases.

Sorry if this reply seems a bit curt, but a contribution such as "I'm thinking Ke2, taking the indirect opposition also holds, as black has no way to penetrate into the position" is actually quite fortunate to receive any reply at all.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
up and comer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 258
Joined: 10/20/08
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #37 - 11/02/08 at 22:44:17
Post Tools
Paddy wrote on 08/15/08 at 17:08:48:
Bocajaka wrote on 08/14/08 at 20:28:13:
This is seriously discouraging Sad I feel like I get 75% wrong.

Perhaps my problem is even more fundamental than I thought. Maybe I do not fully understand basics such as opposition.

Take this one for example:

White to move and draw

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


In endgame terms this is in the category "very very easy" but I have no clue of what candidates or whatever to consider. I feel lost!!

Let me just ensure you that I am not retarded or anything (I know that for a fact), but endgames are very difficult for me. How easily do you see the drawing line here?




This one is certainly NOT "very very easy". In one line White has to make a series of only moves to draw.

It is very hard for a human to solve such positions by calculation alone. You have to know what you are aiming for and what you are trying to avoid, which means you simply must know and understand the relevant basic positions.

Considerations:
a) If the position reduces to K+ h-pawn v K it's an easy draw.
b) if it reduces to K+g-pawn,  the position Pg5, BKg4, WKg2 is drawn unless Black has the opposition.
c) If the Black king is allowed to push the white king back, then the white position will rapidly become critical.
d) Based on b) above, if it were Black's move and he played the obvious 1...Kf5 then White could immediately force a draw by 2 g4+! hxg4 3 Kg3.
e) White's king is therefore in its best position for the moment, both for holding up the black pawns and preventing the advance of Black's king.

So, White should play 1 g3! (only move to draw) and now I think the main lines are:

1...Kf5 2.g4+! hxg4+ 3.Kg3 Kf6 4.Kxg4=;  this resource is vital in many K+P endings.
1...h4 2.gxh4 gxh4 3.Kg4 or even Kg2=
1...g4+ 2.Kg2 [All other moves draw, except 2.Ke4?? Kg5 3. Ke3 h4 4. gxh4+ Kxh4 5. Kf2 Kh3 6. Kg1 Kg3 and Black reaches a basic winning position (king on the 6th rank ahead of the pawn).] 2…Kf5 3.Kf1 Ke4 4.Ke2 Kd4 5.Kd2=; 
1…Kf6 (probably the best winning try, hoping to induce an error from White in the coming manoeuvring phase.) 2.Kf2 (only move) 
and now:
a)      2… Ke5 3.Ke3 o.m. Kd5 4.Kd3 o.m. g4 (4...h4 5.gxh4 gxh4 6.Ke3=) 5.Ke3 o.m. Ke5 6.Kd3 o.m. =  Black can gain the opposition but it does not help him, since the f4 square is unavailable to him and the white king cannot be pulled outside the square of Black’s g-pawn, so the sac …h4 achieves nothing.
b)      2...g4 3.Ke3 Ke5 (3...Kg5 4.Kf2 o.m. =) 4.Kd3 Kd5 (4...h4 5.gxh4 g3 6.Ke3 Kf5 7.Kf3=) 5.Ke3 Ke5=;
c)      2...Kf5 3.Kf3 o.m.= 

Please let me know if anyone finds any errors in the above, or if I’ve missed out any important lines or ideas.



I'm thinking Ke2, taking the indirect opposition also holds, as black has no way to penetrate into the position
  

uscf - 2250
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Voprak
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
!

Posts: 41
Location: Adams
Joined: 01/29/03
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #36 - 10/23/08 at 12:41:23
Post Tools
Bocajaka,
I would suggest the book series "Essential endgames explained move by move" to help you get a grip on endings.  They have many, many diagrams so that a set is not even needed to play through moves.  Simple to understand explanations provided for each move to see the ideas behind drawing/winning techniques.  I have a copy at work for lunchbreaks.  I'm no endgame master but these books helped alot.
Happy Training
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
chk
God Member
*****
Offline


a pawn is a pawn

Posts: 1063
Location: Athens
Joined: 10/26/06
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #35 - 09/22/08 at 09:04:22
Post Tools
Willempie wrote on 09/21/08 at 12:08:20:

Iirc it only works if you put up maximum 5 pieces or pawns. So 2 pawns vs 1 will work, but not 2 vs 2.



Important: except 5 vs. 1 (e.g. does not work if Black has a sole King vs. White King + 4 pieces)

Moreover, I once inserted a difficult 'mate in 2' position and it could only find a mate in 3 (just like me Wink ), iirc it was K+Q+R+N vs. K+R. I have this position in my notes (the correct solution too) and if time allows I will check it again with the tablebases and post it here.
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #34 - 09/21/08 at 12:08:20
Post Tools
bearheart wrote on 09/21/08 at 11:47:42:
I went to the Shredder endgame game through the supplied link; however, I could not get my position analyzed after setting it up.  Even set up the English page, but could not get Shredder to move to analyze it.  Guess I am too ignorant to figure out how to get it to work.  Does anyone know how?

Iirc it only works if you put up maximum 5 pieces or pawns. So 2 pawns vs 1 will work, but not 2 vs 2.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bearheart
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 23
Location: Mound
Joined: 02/19/05
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #33 - 09/21/08 at 11:47:42
Post Tools
I went to the Shredder endgame game through the supplied link; however, I could not get my position analyzed after setting it up.  Even set up the English page, but could not get Shredder to move to analyze it.  Guess I am too ignorant to figure out how to get it to work.  Does anyone know how?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sssthepro
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 439
Joined: 12/16/06
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #32 - 09/21/08 at 06:31:58
Post Tools
Anymore useful endgame puzzles? I like the mental exercise, and the revelation that I am actually terribly weak at endgames... Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 966
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #31 - 08/26/08 at 19:37:07
Post Tools
Matemax wrote on 08/26/08 at 13:22:44:
sssthepro wrote on 08/26/08 at 11:19:47:
Ugh, I missed the ...Ke6 or ...Ke5 idea. 

Does anyone have a tablebase? Maybe someone can check.

just go to:
http://www.shredderchess.de/online-schach/online-datenbanken/endspiel-datenbank....


Thanks - that's a really useful site!

I've just played around with it a little and found that White can actually win if his rear pawn is on c2 instead of c3!   

At first just the thought of this made my head spin, then I realized that it is because this time when White plays his king to c4 and Black goes Kc6, then White has c2-c3, forcing the black king to give ground. The white king can reach b5 without Black being able to counterattack as in the original puzzle. 

White either wins the b-pawn or forces through c5-c6 bxc6 Kxc6, reaching a basic winning position: 
1 Kd2 Kc7 2 Kc3 Kd7 3 Kc4 Kc6 (drawn if the pawn is already on c3) 4 c3! Kd7 5 Kb5 and wins.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bocajaka
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 122
Joined: 07/15/08
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #30 - 08/26/08 at 18:58:37
Post Tools
Paddy wrote on 08/26/08 at 00:43:09:
sssthepro wrote on 08/25/08 at 12:43:49:
March the king up the board, force the king to the last rank, exchange the b-pawn with your front c-pawn, and push your extra pawn to become a queen.


It's very tricky though, since it's all down to king moves. Some considerations:


I don't think you missed any ideas as far as I can see. It is tricky but I think your approach was the correct with your conclusions first and then consider which route to take with the king. And last,  “Thou shalt not trade down to K+P unless you can safely bet your first-born child on the result.” (Soltis). So true!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bocajaka
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 122
Joined: 07/15/08
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #29 - 08/26/08 at 18:47:18
Post Tools
No wonder these are difficult when their solution is wrong. I just checked and it's supposed to be a win for white but the tablebase says otherwise. This is not the first time that the book has had the wrong solution to a puzzle, did they not have tablebases in 1998 do you think or is the author just lazzy?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #28 - 08/26/08 at 13:22:44
Post Tools
sssthepro wrote on 08/26/08 at 11:19:47:
Ugh, I missed the ...Ke6 or ...Ke5 idea. 

Does anyone have a tablebase? Maybe someone can check.


just go to:
http://www.shredderchess.de/online-schach/online-datenbanken/endspiel-datenbank....
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sssthepro
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 439
Joined: 12/16/06
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #27 - 08/26/08 at 11:19:47
Post Tools
Ugh, I missed the ...Ke6 or ...Ke5 idea. 

Does anyone have a tablebase? Maybe someone can check.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #26 - 08/26/08 at 07:55:59
Post Tools
It is a draw. Black can attack the pawns from the d-file, so he doesnt require the opposition. If white reaches d5 the opposition is also void as black can pendle between c7and d7. The extra tempo is irrelevant.

Are you sure it is white to play and win as far as I can see there is no way he can win?
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 966
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #25 - 08/26/08 at 00:43:09
Post Tools
sssthepro wrote on 08/25/08 at 12:43:49:
March the king up the board, force the king to the last rank, exchange the b-pawn with your front c-pawn, and push your extra pawn to become a queen.


That’s the plan, but I think this one should be a draw. It's very tricky though, since it's all down to king moves. Some considerations:

1) If the b7 and c5 pawn are exchanged, White wins if can get his king to c6 (with or without the opposition), or c5 with the opposition, assuming he is not losing his rear c-pawn.

2) If White plays c3-c4 too early he might not be able to gain the opposition later, lacking a tempo move.

3) If the White king goes to d5, Black draws with no problems as long as he can answer Kd5 with …Kc7 or …Kd7.

4) The plan of sending the white king to b5 is far more dangerous, since the b7 pawn hinders Black’s king manoeuvres.

5) Answering Kc4 with Kc6 is OK, but Black must NOT play …Kc6 if White can answer Kc4, which means that Black cannot really prevent Kb5.

6) If the White king reaches b5 with the Black king on c7 or d7, White wins, since the black king must give up more ground to protect the b-pawn and then White is able to play c6, bxc6 Kxc6 with a standard win; so passive play by Black loses.

7) Black must therefore be able to answer Kb6 with a move that attacks the front c-pawn, which means that the black king must be prepared to abandon the b-pawn and deploy actively in counter-attacking against the white pawns.

Ok, let’s try to express this in moves:

1.Kc2 Kc7 2.Kb3 Kd7! - only move- 
[not 2...Kc6? 3.Kc4 Kc7 4.Kb5 Kd7 5.Kb6 Kc8 6.c6 bxc6 7.Kxc6+-] 
3 Kb4 [3.Kc4 Kc6=] 3…Ke6! o.m. and now:
a) 4.Kc4 Ke5! o.m. 5.Kb5 (5.c6 bxc6 6.Kc5 Ke4!= o.m.) 5...Kd5 6.Kb6 (6.c4+ Kd4) 6...Kc4=; 
b) 4.c4 Kd7 o.m. 5.Kb5 Kc7 o.m. 6.Ka5 Kc6 7.Kb4 b6=; 
c) 4.Kb5 Kd5 o.m. 5.c4+ [5.Kb6 Kc4= o.m.] 5...Kd4= 
d) 4.Ka5 Kd5 5.Kb5 Ke4! o.m. 6.Kb6 Kd5 7.c4+ Kd4=

So little material, yet so tricky. Please point out any mistakes or any important ideas I might have missed.

“Thou shalt not trade down to K+P unless you can safely bet your first-born child on the result.” (Soltis)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sssthepro
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 439
Joined: 12/16/06
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #24 - 08/25/08 at 12:43:49
Post Tools
March the king up the board, force the king to the last rank, exchange the b-pawn with your front c-pawn, and push your extra pawn to become a queen.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bocajaka
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 122
Joined: 07/15/08
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #23 - 08/23/08 at 21:44:00
Post Tools
Even though I feel like things are progressing now and I'm getting more solutions correct because of what I have learnt recently some "elementary" positions are still very difficult for me.

Here is one for example which I'm not quite sure about how to go about solving

White to move and win
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bocajaka
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 122
Joined: 07/15/08
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #22 - 08/23/08 at 20:21:29
Post Tools
I'm back from holiday now, thanks for waiting patiently Smiley

Indeed you are correct. I found this example quite beautiful containing many elementary positions.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 966
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #21 - 08/18/08 at 11:05:18
Post Tools
Bocajaka wrote on 08/15/08 at 18:04:11:
Terrific analysis and explanation. If you are not a master of some sort (which I bet you are) then at least you are a master in the endgame in my opinion.

I was thinking about

c) If the Black king is allowed to push the white king back, then the white position will rapidly become critical.

For me endgames are still a mystery and I calculate the most stupid things so for me this statement is not obvious. How do you know this?

It might be interesting for you to know where that second position comes from:

White to move and draw =

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


Just to give anothe illustration of how little endgame intuition I have. In this starting position I had no idea whether 1.Ka2, 1.Kb1 or 1.Kb2 was the right move. I was thinking about "corresponding squares" which I learnt of Williempie. See how stupid I am....

But it's good to know that these are not in the easy category at least. Although in the book it says they are "elementary positions". Perhaps the meaning is different somehow.


I've not seen this before but it seems to me that this one has very little to do with getting the correct first move and, as with the other two examples I commented on, everything to do with thinking about basic positions. What position does White want to reach? Can he reach it, and if so how? 

Also, if intuition is the sum of what I have learned from experience, I should listen to the voice that tells me that since the action will be confined to the edge of the board, stalemate ideas might come in somewhere.

Well, ideally White would like to reach either the drawn position with just a black h-pawn left or the one with Black left with just a g-pawn no further forward than g5 and unable to take the opposition. So let's see what happens when both kings rush across towards the pawns:

1.Kb2 Kb5 2.Kc3 Kc5 3.Kd3 Kd5 4.Ke3 Ke5 5.Kf3 Kf5 6.Kg3 Kxg5 7.Kh3 
OK, White has lost a pawn, but his king is well placed for defence, and all he needs now is to exchange his g-pawn. Let's looks at the possibilities:
7...h4 allows 8 g3=, so Black has to move his king.
7... Kf6 or Kh6 allow 8 g4=
7...Kf4 8 Kh4 Kf5 9 g3 and any move of the black king allows g4=
7...Kf5 8 Kh4 Kf4 looks like the key line, apparently preventing g4 but then 9 g4! hxg4 is stalemate!
I'd like to say "Voila!" but perhaps I've missed something, since I’ve not reached Position 2.  Let me know please, since I'm definitely not a master.
« Last Edit: 08/18/08 at 15:37:57 by Paddy »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sssthepro
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 439
Joined: 12/16/06
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #20 - 08/18/08 at 10:08:09
Post Tools
I saw a similar endgame before. 

W: Kb1, f2, g2, h2
B: Kg8, a3, c3

White to play and...lose! Cheesy

I took black against a lot of my friends who believed White should win. They started pushing the pawns, and after I successfully blockaded them, they started to thinking of losing a tempo, but found out their their king cannot move.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bocajaka
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 122
Joined: 07/15/08
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #19 - 08/15/08 at 21:24:54
Post Tools
Here is a quite interesting pawn endgame for everyone to solve if they wish:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


Hint: to understand this position I experimented with just a lone king against three pawns, basically meaning that the other king is stalemated (see diagram below). I found that the king either stops the pawns or gets stalemated on the first rank.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bocajaka
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 122
Joined: 07/15/08
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #18 - 08/15/08 at 18:04:11
Post Tools
Terrific analysis and explanation. If you are not a master of some sort (which I bet you are) then at least you are a master in the endgame in my opinion.

I was thinking about

c) If the Black king is allowed to push the white king back, then the white position will rapidly become critical.

For me endgames are still a mystery and I calculate the most stupid things so for me this statement is not obvious. How do you know this?

It might be interesting for you to know where that second position comes from:

White to move and draw =

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


Just to give anothe illustration of how little endgame intuition I have. In this starting position I had no idea whether 1.Ka2, 1.Kb1 or 1.Kb2 was the right move. I was thinking about "corresponding squares" which I learnt of Williempie. See how stupid I am....

But it's good to know that these are not in the easy category at least. Although in the book it says they are "elementary positions". Perhaps the meaning is different somehow.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 966
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #17 - 08/15/08 at 17:08:48
Post Tools
Bocajaka wrote on 08/14/08 at 20:28:13:
This is seriously discouraging Sad I feel like I get 75% wrong.

Perhaps my problem is even more fundamental than I thought. Maybe I do not fully understand basics such as opposition.

Take this one for example:

White to move and draw

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


In endgame terms this is in the category "very very easy" but I have no clue of what candidates or whatever to consider. I feel lost!!

Let me just ensure you that I am not retarded or anything (I know that for a fact), but endgames are very difficult for me. How easily do you see the drawing line here?




This one is certainly NOT "very very easy". In one line White has to make a series of only moves to draw.

It is very hard for a human to solve such positions by calculation alone. You have to know what you are aiming for and what you are trying to avoid, which means you simply must know and understand the relevant basic positions.

Considerations:
a) If the position reduces to K+ h-pawn v K it's an easy draw.
b) if it reduces to K+g-pawn,  the position Pg5, BKg4, WKg2 is drawn unless Black has the opposition.
c) If the Black king is allowed to push the white king back, then the white position will rapidly become critical.
d) Based on b) above, if it were Black's move and he played the obvious 1...Kf5 then White could immediately force a draw by 2 g4+! hxg4 3 Kg3.
e) White's king is therefore in its best position for the moment, both for holding up the black pawns and preventing the advance of Black's king.

So, White should play 1 g3! (only move to draw) and now I think the main lines are:

1...Kf5 2.g4+! hxg4+ 3.Kg3 Kf6 4.Kxg4=;  this resource is vital in many K+P endings.
1...h4 2.gxh4 gxh4 3.Kg4 or even Kg2=
1...g4+ 2.Kg2 [All other moves draw, except 2.Ke4?? Kg5 3. Ke3 h4 4. gxh4+ Kxh4 5. Kf2 Kh3 6. Kg1 Kg3 and Black reaches a basic winning position (king on the 6th rank ahead of the pawn).] 2…Kf5 3.Kf1 Ke4 4.Ke2 Kd4 5.Kd2=; 
1…Kf6 (probably the best winning try, hoping to induce an error from White in the coming manoeuvring phase.) 2.Kf2 (only move) 
and now:
a)      2… Ke5 3.Ke3 o.m. Kd5 4.Kd3 o.m. g4 (4...h4 5.gxh4 gxh4 6.Ke3=) 5.Ke3 o.m. Ke5 6.Kd3 o.m. =  Black can gain the opposition but it does not help him, since the f4 square is unavailable to him and the white king cannot be pulled outside the square of Black’s g-pawn, so the sac …h4 achieves nothing.
b)      2...g4 3.Ke3 Ke5 (3...Kg5 4.Kf2 o.m. =) 4.Kd3 Kd5 (4...h4 5.gxh4 g3 6.Ke3 Kf5 7.Kf3=) 5.Ke3 Ke5=;
c)      2...Kf5 3.Kf3 o.m.= 

Please let me know if anyone finds any errors in the above, or if I’ve missed out any important lines or ideas.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 966
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #16 - 08/15/08 at 01:57:46
Post Tools
Bocajaka wrote on 08/14/08 at 19:46:35:
I have already started to notice some endgame patterns and it's getting easier to solve some of the positions. Thanks to all of you.

However, I shall keep on bothering you with another position:

White to move 

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


In this position I notice that I am going to lose e5 and thus will have to try to get a draw (if my pawn was passed I would try to win!).

So here I tried first 1.b4! with the idea that if he takes it I win, but ofcourse he does not. But I still seriously thought that perhaps I could draw anyway after 1...Kxe5.

Then I looked at 1.Kg3 emmediately 1...Kxe5 2.Kg4 Kf5 3.Kh5 and I felt I could not reach a draw.

So I got discouraged and gave up and looked at the answer, 1...Kh3. 

As you can see I did not look further than 3 moves (which is very little for being an endgame) but again I can not blame myself. I remember when I was starting out and tried to solve a middlegame position, the same thing happend to me, I got discouraged because I did not have a clue about what was going on. Namely I did not see any "ideas", that is tactical motifs etc. Nowadays, middlegames are not very mystical too me, they are more of an calculation exercise if you understand what I mean.

But the question is whether or not I can learn endgames such as in the same way. How easily do you guys see 1.Kh3. Do you even bother to calculate 1.b4 and 1.Kg3 or is it similar to you like calculating a really passive move when you have a mating attack in the middlegame? I'm very curious.

Btw, in this exercise I did not find any use for "corresponding squares". Should I have been able to use it or is this a completely different type of exercise.Don't get me wrong, I have had great use for this in lots of other excerises and it has helped my tremendously.


Pawn endings tend to be either pretty trivial (as long as you know, understand, and have practised till automatic, half a dozen basic positions and are familiar with some methods such as the opposition and triangulation) or quite tricky, sometimes fiendishly difficult. I tell students NOT to simplify into a pawn ending unless it is clear that it is trivially won/drawn, or unless the alternatives are clearly worse.

Soltis (in “Grandmaster Secrets - Endings”) laid down the commandment:

“Thou shalt not trade down to K+P unless you can safely bet your first-born child on the result.”

A bit over-the-top perhaps, but he gets the point across.

I certainly would not categorize this one as “very very easy”; it’s a bit tricky in fact.

I suggest you study an endgame primer before tackling these Polgar puzzles, otherwise you are definitely going find the going tough and become discouraged. It's like trying to solve tricky problems in geometry before you've mastered the basic theorems.

The position first of all requires one to know that if it reduces to a single black pawn on g5 plus kings, with White's king somewhere in front of the pawn it’s a draw unless Black can get his own king a) ahead of the pawn and b) with the opposition.

Pushing the e-pawn does not seem to achieve anything, so it is clear that White must either resign and head for the bar, or try to get counterplay by activating his king. However, 1 Kg3? fails to 1...h5!, suppressing counterplay. 

So 1 Kh3, the first real point of which appears when you see that it allows White to answer 1...h5 with 2 g4+! hxg4+ 3 Kg3 Kxe5 4 Kxg4 reaching one of the basic position-types (a draw in this case) that you need to learn. (So in a practical game 1 Kh3 could almost be chosen by elimination in fact.)

So then we examine some other tries for Black: 
1...g4+ 2 Kh4 seems fine for White.
1...Kxe5 2 Kg4 Kf6 allows 3 Kh5 since if 3...Kg7 4 g4 Kh7 stalemate!
1...Kg6 can be met either by 2 Kg4 h5+ 3 Kf3 Kf5 4 g4+! hxg4 5 Kg3 etc., or even 2 g4 as long as White can gain the opposition after Black eventually captures on e5, and it turns out he can: 2...Kf7 3 Kg3 Ke6 4  Kf3 Kxe5 5 Ke3.

If I've made an error or missed anything important I expect someone will soon tell me.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bocajaka
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 122
Joined: 07/15/08
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #15 - 08/14/08 at 20:28:13
Post Tools
This is seriously discouraging Sad I feel like I get 75% wrong.

Perhaps my problem is even more fundamental than I thought. Maybe I do not fully understand basics such as opposition.

Take this one for example:

White to move and draw

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


In endgame terms this is in the category "very very easy" but I have no clue of what candidates or whatever to consider. I feel lost!!

Let me just ensure you that I am not retarded or anything (I know that for a fact), but endgames are very difficult for me. How easily do you see the drawing line here?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bocajaka
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 122
Joined: 07/15/08
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #14 - 08/14/08 at 19:46:35
Post Tools
I have already started to notice some endgame patterns and it's getting easier to solve some of the positions. Thanks to all of you.

However, I shall keep on bothering you with another position:

White to move 

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


In this position I notice that I am going to lose e5 and thus will have to try to get a draw (if my pawn was passed I would try to win!).

So here I tried first 1.b4! with the idea that if he takes it I win, but ofcourse he does not. But I still seriously thought that perhaps I could draw anyway after 1...Kxe5.

Then I looked at 1.Kg3 emmediately 1...Kxe5 2.Kg4 Kf5 3.Kh5 and I felt I could not reach a draw.

So I got discouraged and gave up and looked at the answer, 1...Kh3. 

As you can see I did not look further than 3 moves (which is very little for being an endgame) but again I can not blame myself. I remember when I was starting out and tried to solve a middlegame position, the same thing happend to me, I got discouraged because I did not have a clue about what was going on. Namely I did not see any "ideas", that is tactical motifs etc. Nowadays, middlegames are not very mystical too me, they are more of an calculation exercise if you understand what I mean.

But the question is whether or not I can learn endgames such as in the same way. How easily do you guys see 1.Kh3. Do you even bother to calculate 1.b4 and 1.Kg3 or is it similar to you like calculating a really passive move when you have a mating attack in the middlegame? I'm very curious.

Btw, in this exercise I did not find any use for "corresponding squares". Should I have been able to use it or is this a completely different type of exercise.Don't get me wrong, I have had great use for this in lots of other excerises and it has helped my tremendously.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #13 - 08/12/08 at 08:48:23
Post Tools
I'd say the square, corresponding squares (including opposition), pawn races and distant passers, 4 or 5 theoretical positions such as Ke6, e5 vs Ke8 or Kb6, b5 vs Kb8 and fingercounting (who's first).

Rook endgames are scary, but yes I suspect they are best learned via playing them, plus knowing some principles. Still in rook endgames you can see the best of the best making errors (me included Grin), so at the least you are in good company when you screw it up.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bocajaka
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 122
Joined: 07/15/08
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #12 - 08/12/08 at 07:49:12
Post Tools
Willempie wrote on 08/12/08 at 07:42:36:
Bocajaka wrote on 08/11/08 at 16:27:22:
Thanks for the good explanation, I think I understand what you mean now! Let's repeat Wink 1.Kd5 Kc8 2.Kd4 Kd8 and now 3.Kc4! and white is threatening to go to d5 and c5 which requires black to cover the corresponding squares with 3...Kc8 4.Kd5 and now black is forced to defend against Kd6 but at the same time he gives up control over the corresponding square c7. I'm not completely sure I understand the logic behind this example though. Black's king is forced to move to a square he has already been to in order to cover the corresponding squares. When that happens white takes the "corresponding square opposition" (I'm not sure what to call it) and later he gets the "normal" opposition (c5,c7).

Is this thechnique something that you guys use intuitively or do you follow this scheme of finding the corresponding squares during your calculation? It seems a lot better than simply calculating every single king move although this should work aswell.

When is this thechnique useful? What happens if the position is more complicated (meaning more pawns for example), does it work as well then too?

It works best when there are blocked pawns and both kings are near to them. I use it to facilitate my calculations, so it is an addition not a replacement. It can also pop up in other endgames then pawn endgames, like knight endgames, but then it works differently. Ie you can force the king off the corresponding square with the knight. However in rook endgames and the likes it is almost useless (though it can pop up if you have to consider an exchange of rooks).
To answer your other question, yes I do it mainly on intuition, whence I have more problems with rook endgames than with pawn endgames. Wink


I will get to rook endgames in a few hundred problems or so and then you can be sure I will terrorise you some more  Grin

So basically now I know corresponding squares and opposition.  How many important thechniques do you believe there are in pawn endgames? 

I suppose wer are all different but personally I like to do it this way, by "doing and learning", instead of reading an instructional endgame book.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #11 - 08/12/08 at 07:42:36
Post Tools
Bocajaka wrote on 08/11/08 at 16:27:22:
Thanks for the good explanation, I think I understand what you mean now! Let's repeat Wink 1.Kd5 Kc8 2.Kd4 Kd8 and now 3.Kc4! and white is threatening to go to d5 and c5 which requires black to cover the corresponding squares with 3...Kc8 4.Kd5 and now black is forced to defend against Kd6 but at the same time he gives up control over the corresponding square c7. I'm not completely sure I understand the logic behind this example though. Black's king is forced to move to a square he has already been to in order to cover the corresponding squares. When that happens white takes the "corresponding square opposition" (I'm not sure what to call it) and later he gets the "normal" opposition (c5,c7).

Is this thechnique something that you guys use intuitively or do you follow this scheme of finding the corresponding squares during your calculation? It seems a lot better than simply calculating every single king move although this should work aswell.

When is this thechnique useful? What happens if the position is more complicated (meaning more pawns for example), does it work as well then too?

It works best when there are blocked pawns and both kings are near to them. I use it to facilitate my calculations, so it is an addition not a replacement. It can also pop up in other endgames then pawn endgames, like knight endgames, but then it works differently. Ie you can force the king off the corresponding square with the knight. However in rook endgames and the likes it is almost useless (though it can pop up if you have to consider an exchange of rooks).
To answer your other question, yes I do it mainly on intuition, whence I have more problems with rook endgames than with pawn endgames. Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #10 - 08/11/08 at 16:41:58
Post Tools
Thx guys for the corrections:

Indeed:
1.Kd5, Kf7 2.g6+, fxg6 3.fxg6 (instead of my error 3.hxg) wins.

1.f6+,xf6+ 2.xf6,Kf7 3.Kf5, And now either Ke8 or Kg8 draws
(iso of 3....h6 which is a clear error).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bocajaka
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 122
Joined: 07/15/08
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #9 - 08/11/08 at 16:27:22
Post Tools
Willempie wrote on 08/11/08 at 14:38:34:
Bocajaka wrote on 08/11/08 at 12:47:44:
I still find it very intersting when you talk about corresponding squares. Please elaborate on this and explain what you mean, I have a little bit difficulty following you on this. Perhaps you could include an example of some sort.

Simplest example is the opposition. Another is:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Here if white wants to go to e6 black needs to go to g5. If that is not possible he loses. That means that whenever white can reach e6, black must be able to reach g5. So e6 and g5 are corresponding squares. 

If you take that one step further:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Here white is to move. If it were black to move he would lose immediately as he has to yield field b6.
That means that when white gets to c5 black needs to get to c7. So they correspond. Similarly if white could get to d6, black needs to be on d8, so they correspond as well. Now white moves 1.Kd5, which leaves him the option of reaching c5 or d6 next move. So black is forced to cover both corresponding squares, he can do that with 1..Kc8. So d5 and c8 are corresponding as well.
Now white moves 2.Kd4. This allows access to c5 and d5 for white. This means black should cover the corresponding squares c7 and c8 as well. He can do this with 2..Kd8 (or Kb8). Thus d4 and d8 are corresponding.

Now white can win by forcing black off the corresponding squares. As I am not going to take all the fun away I'll leave it to you Smiley


Thanks for the good explanation, I think I understand what you mean now! Let's repeat Wink 1.Kd5 Kc8 2.Kd4 Kd8 and now 3.Kc4! and white is threatening to go to d5 and c5 which requires black to cover the corresponding squares with 3...Kc8 4.Kd5 and now black is forced to defend against Kd6 but at the same time he gives up control over the corresponding square c7. I'm not completely sure I understand the logic behind this example though. Black's king is forced to move to a square he has already been to in order to cover the corresponding squares. When that happens white takes the "corresponding square opposition" (I'm not sure what to call it) and later he gets the "normal" opposition (c5,c7).

Is this thechnique something that you guys use intuitively or do you follow this scheme of finding the corresponding squares during your calculation? It seems a lot better than simply calculating every single king move although this should work aswell.

When is this thechnique useful? What happens if the position is more complicated (meaning more pawns for example), does it work as well then too?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dink Heckler
God Member
*****
Offline


Love-Forty

Posts: 902
Joined: 02/01/07
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #8 - 08/11/08 at 15:05:45
Post Tools
I'm afraid I already took the fun away three posts back in the mirror-image position.
  

'Am I any good at tactics?'
'Computer says No!'
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #7 - 08/11/08 at 14:38:34
Post Tools
Bocajaka wrote on 08/11/08 at 12:47:44:
I still find it very intersting when you talk about corresponding squares. Please elaborate on this and explain what you mean, I have a little bit difficulty following you on this. Perhaps you could include an example of some sort.

Simplest example is the opposition. Another is:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Here if white wants to go to e6 black needs to go to g5. If that is not possible he loses. That means that whenever white can reach e6, black must be able to reach g5. So e6 and g5 are corresponding squares. 

If you take that one step further:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Here white is to move. If it were black to move he would lose immediately as he has to yield field b6.
That means that when white gets to c5 black needs to get to c7. So they correspond. Similarly if white could get to d6, black needs to be on d8, so they correspond as well. Now white moves 1.Kd5, which leaves him the option of reaching c5 or d6 next move. So black is forced to cover both corresponding squares, he can do that with 1..Kc8. So d5 and c8 are corresponding as well.
Now white moves 2.Kd4. This allows access to c5 and d5 for white. This means black should cover the corresponding squares c7 and c8 as well. He can do this with 2..Kd8 (or Kb8). Thus d4 and d8 are corresponding.

Now white can win by forcing black off the corresponding squares. As I am not going to take all the fun away I'll leave it to you Smiley
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dink Heckler
God Member
*****
Offline


Love-Forty

Posts: 902
Joined: 02/01/07
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #6 - 08/11/08 at 13:29:46
Post Tools
Yes, you are right; I followed Micawber's line rather uncritically. Moving the h-pawn is a terrible mistake as it allows W to set up the winnign maneuver, but W can accomplish nothing if the h-pawn stays on it's original square.

As an example of corresponding squares, just take my line after 3...h6.

As to your general question about endings, my answer would be that endings are all about building blocks. If you look at some of Micawber's terrific analyses, you will see how fruitfully he makes use of this method. These building blocks serve to orientate you; without them, you are looking at deducing everything from first principles, which is time-consuming and prone to error.
  

'Am I any good at tactics?'
'Computer says No!'
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bocajaka
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 122
Joined: 07/15/08
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #5 - 08/11/08 at 12:47:44
Post Tools
Dink Heckler wrote on 08/11/08 at 11:39:57:
Problem 1:

1 f6 wins, as Black gets zugzwanged.

1 f6 gf; 2 gf Kf7; 3 Kf5 h6; 4 Ke5 Kf8; 5 Kf4 Ke8; 6 Ke4...zugzwang.

6...Kf7; 7 Kf5, or 6...Kf8; 7 Ke5.

This is a simple example of corresponding squares. if White plays to one of the key squares, Black has to play to the corresponding square to hold the position.

the corresponding squares are f5 and f7, e5 and f8, e4/f4 correspond to e8/g8. hence Black's problem, as e8 and g8 are noncontiguous (Black would draw if he could play 6...Ke8-g8, maintaining the correspondence.

1...Kf7 is left as an exrecise for the reader  Smiley


I find your proposed answer very interesting although I believe it is wrong. After 1.f6+ gxf6 2.gxf6+ black playes 2...Ke8 and the point now is that white can not control the queening square with 3.Ke6 because black has an extra "pawn tempo", 3...Kf8 4.f7 h6. And giving up the f-pawn to go after the h-pawn doesn't work either, as we know because the h-pawn is a draw.

I still find it very intersting when you talk about corresponding squares. Please elaborate on this and explain what you mean, I have a little bit difficulty following you on this. Perhaps you could include an example of some sort.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dink Heckler
God Member
*****
Offline


Love-Forty

Posts: 902
Joined: 02/01/07
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #4 - 08/11/08 at 11:39:57
Post Tools
Problem 1:

1 f6 wins, as Black gets zugzwanged.

1 f6 gf; 2 gf Kf7; 3 Kf5 h6; 4 Ke5 Kf8; 5 Kf4 Ke8; 6 Ke4...zugzwang.

6...Kf7; 7 Kf5, or 6...Kf8; 7 Ke5.

This is a simple example of corresponding squares. if White plays to one of the key squares, Black has to play to the corresponding square to hold the position.

the corresponding squares are f5 and f7, e5 and f8, e4/f4 correspond to e8/g8. hence Black's problem, as e8 and g8 are noncontiguous (Black would draw if he could play 6...Ke8-g8, maintaining the correspondence.

1...Kf7 is left as an exrecise for the reader  Smiley
  

'Am I any good at tactics?'
'Computer says No!'
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #3 - 08/11/08 at 07:46:23
Post Tools
micawber wrote on 08/10/08 at 20:42:47:

So there seems to be no winning pawn-break.
What if I move my king. Hm 
1.Kd5 looks nice: 
After 1...Kd7 I can break through:  2.g6!,hxg 3.f6! winning

3.hxg6 wins as well in te same way as below.
Quote:

After 1...Kf7 2.g6,hxg6 3.fxg6+,Kf6 4.Kd6 black seems in trouble
4...Kg5 5.Ke7,Kxh5 6.Kf7! and I win 
(6.....Kg4 7.Kxg7,h5 8.Kf7,h4 9.g7,h3 10.g8Q+,; 6....Kh4 7.kxg7,Kh3 8.Kf7,h5 9.g7,h4 10.g8Q+ 11.Kh2,Qg4)

I think 1...Kf7 2.g6,hxg6 3.fxg6+ is a draw. I dont see what you can do after black goes into the corner.
3.hxg6 is winning as there is no frotress defense. The trick is to play f6 and Kf7 to push through the g-pawn.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #2 - 08/11/08 at 07:10:41
Post Tools
Here's one way to approach any pawn ending:  Think of it as extreme tactics training.

It's possible to calculate almost every move in a pawn ending, so do so!  It will help the rest of your game immensely.  For instance, the first position 7 legal moves for white.  Take your time and work out what happens with each of them.  Learn as you go, and you'll find your chess vision improving by leaps and bounds as you learn the basics of pawn endings.

Happy hunting!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Why don't I understand endgames?
Reply #1 - 08/10/08 at 20:42:47
Post Tools
Well now, as you did yourself I first examined some forcing continuations

1.h6,gxh6 2.gxh6,Kf7 gets me nowhere
Black draws as if there is a single f-pawn on the board.

1.f6 is about the same:
1...xf6 2.gxf6,Kf7 3.Kf5,h6 and again there is no way for white to
promote his f-pawn. 4.Ke5,Kf8 5.Ke6,Ke8 etc.

1.g6 is more promissing:
1.....,h6 (1...hxg 2.hxg6 should win easy, i'll outtempo black)

2.f6+,gxf6 3.Kf5 and I win the f6-pawn back with a passed pawn.
Wait a sec, I know this position: it's a theoretical DRAW.
(As a matter of fact I discussed this position a few weeks ago in the
Hebden pawn endgame)

So there seems to be no winning pawn-break.
What if I move my king. Hm 
1.Kd5 looks nice: 
After 1...Kd7 I can break through:  2.g6!,hxg 3.f6! winning
After 1...Kf7 2.g6,hxg6 3.fxg6+,Kf6 4.Kd6 black seems in trouble
4...Kg5 5.Ke7,Kxh5 6.Kf7! and I win 
(6.....Kg4 7.Kxg7,h5 8.Kf7,h4 9.g7,h3 10.g8Q+,; 6....Kh4 7.kxg7,Kh3 8.Kf7,h5 9.g7,h4 10.g8Q+ 11.Kh2,Qg4)

The pawn on h6 prevents black to defend his g-pawn. 
Without it black would even win after Kh6!
In fact this is another key position, that you should be able to recognize:
White e4/kd5 Black e5,Kf4  Whoever has the move loses

But what about 1....,h6! 
Now I am forced to play 2.g6,Kf6 
And after 3.Ke4 I dont see a win.
But what if I can get to the g-pawn like in the Kf7-variation?
3.Kd6,Kxf5 4.Ke7,Kg5 5.Kf7 yes I am in time to promote.


Finally I can get this last variation by force:
1.g6,h6 2.Kd5 and black has nothing better than Kf6 since after
Kf8 or Kg8 I can drive the King back to h8 before playing f6! followed by Kf7.

********************************

About the second position:
If black had his king on f6 and the white f-pawn is unprotected,
black draws with h5!
So whites first task is to make sure he protects his f-pawn in time:
1.Kg2 being the first move (otherwise black executes his plan)
After that I would start worrying about the position again Smiley.

As a matter of fact it is helpfull to know that if white has an f- or g-pawn on the 5th rank with his king before it, he always wins.







« Last Edit: 08/11/08 at 05:13:04 by micawber »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bocajaka
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 122
Joined: 07/15/08
Why don't I understand endgames?
08/10/08 at 18:47:17
Post Tools
At the moment I'm doing puzzles from Laslo Polgars book "Chess endgames" and right now the positions feature pawn endgames. For some reason this is really difficult for me to grasp and I would say I get only about 50% wright.

Take the following position for instance:

White to move

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


How should one think about this position? Should I instantly see a certain theme somehow (like with a middlegame combination)  or should I simply start calculating the forcing moves f5+, g6, h6? Problem for me is that calculating endgame moves does not come as naturally as calculating middlegame tactics. Some moves do not "pop-out" to me but this may be because I do not know the theme yet.

With middlegame tactics you can in many cases almost smell the solution before you start calculating. For example if the king is stuck in the centre you instantly look for a move that opens some line or whatever. Is it the same with endgames, for example the above position?

Here is another one with white to move:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


In this position my thought is as follows: I see that I have to go towards the queenside and then perhaps try to gain the opposition somehow and force myself towards black's a-pawn. Perhaps I can use the f-pawn to decoy or gain a tempo in order to do this.

That's about what I understand about the position. Is this view wright or does a good player simply "see" the winning line instantly?

Please try to solve any of these positions (or both) for white and explain how you came to your answer. What was your thoughts before starting to calculate etc. I will provide the solution in short.


Btw, this position is under "Elementary position" in Polgars book so it should be fairly standard.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo